Author Topic: RCMP  (Read 354 times)

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Online Granny

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RCMP
« on: July 13, 2019, 09:41:09 am »
In my opinion:
  The RCMP exist in a bubble of secrecy, protection and power not afforded to other police forces in Canada because they are national, not local, so without direct accountability to people and communities they serve. Rather, they are strongly connected to national government, and their power comes from doing what government wants them to do. Despite the fact that 'government cannot direct the operations of police", without direct accountability to communities, the RCMP do operate as the 'enforcement' arm of government. Despite their Oath to "obey lawful orders" only, RCMP officers have little recourse, no protection from unlawful orders.

Maybe that will improve now with a union to protect officers' interests.
We can hope. Lol

History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Mounted_Police

Glorious?

Present
https://www.voiceonline.com/rcmp-is-a-completely-broken-organization-that-cannot-be-fixed-with-its-current-culture-structure-leadership-former-solicitor-general-kash-heed/

Broken?
“At the end of the day, I am sad to say we are probably going to be looking at close to a $1 billion settlement and we don’t even know if we’ve fixed the problem. They don’t care as an organization because this is taxpayers’ money. For years I have been raising the issue based on the culture, the leadership of that organization and how fraught with problems it is and continues to be; yet we have nobody – and I am talking of the politicians – that want to take this on, hold them to account again and again and again. Nobody’s stepped up saying ‘enough is enough!’


Union
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/national-police-federation-union-rcmp-mounties-1.5210796

Finally!

National Police Federation wins right to represent Mounties in collective bargaining:
Supreme Court in 2015 struck down law that forbade Mounties from unionizing

« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 09:53:23 am by Granny »

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Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2019, 11:53:14 am »
From knowing a lot of different people working in enforcement organizations, and reading the news over the years, it's clear that there's a lot of dicks working in enforcement organizations across Canada and they have a serious internal culture program.

Having the power of authority over others, including the power to boss people around while having a gun strapped to your hip, tends to attract a certain type of person, and also tends to turn good people into a certain type of person.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Online Granny

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2019, 07:39:07 am »
From knowing a lot of different people working in enforcement organizations, and reading the news over the years, it's clear that there's a lot of dicks working in enforcement organizations across Canada and they have a serious internal culture program.

Having the power of authority over others, including the power to boss people around while having a gun strapped to your hip, tends to attract a certain type of person, and also tends to turn good people into a certain type of person.

I'm not a fan of the "a lot of dicks" idea. I think the culture that is sustained by the brass is much more influential ... and where that comes from: what are the political and other pressures that sustain/require certain types of behaviour.

I think you're right about the 'type that likes to boss people around with a gun ... ", but how do those 'dicks' get hired? How do they keep getting away with it? That's the culture from the top sustaining it.

Does one officer decide alone to disobey rules and cover something up, for example? Or does the culture sustain/require that?

"Prosecutors failed to disclose information and RCMP deleted files that pointed to another possible suspect."
"The reasons why are far-reaching and start at the very beginning of this case, during the investigation, and span every level of the justice system, right past the [Nova Scotia] Court of Appeal to the Department of Justice," said MacDonald.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/glen-assoun-brenda-way-justice-miscarriage-1.5210082

Sounds more like collusion from/by the prosecutor than just "a dick" cop: Did the prosecutor suggest that the information 'disappear'?
Oh ya, and the innocent guy who spent 17 years in jail ... was Indigenous.
 There is that.

It certainly creates an issue of public trust, might lead someone like me to question RCMP data that placed blame for deaths of Missing and Murdered Indigenous women "mostly" Indigenous men ... and fails to even mention serial killers.

Do we even know how widespread the practice is of deleting information that doesn't fit the 'popular narrative' in criminal cases? Is it worse than in other police forces? Given the vastness and often remoteness of RCMP jurisdictions across Canada, is it more likely that RCMP officers are inclined to make the evidence fit a chosen narrative?

We don't know, and we could not ever independently access the data to evaluate that and other questions. Eg, CPIC data from all police forces across the country isn't accessible by the public in any form. Seems odd, given that 'freedom of information' is the law now.

A lot of questions ... and very few avenues to find answers.

146 years of NWMP/RCMP service all across the country, and much less public accountability than other forces, it seems to me. That alone is a recipe for an ingrown and corrupted service. 

I wouldn't entirely put responsibility for that on the RCMP, either: Who else helps sustain that? Whose needs are served by that? Who are the power brokers?

« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 07:41:18 am by Granny »
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Offline waldo

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2019, 11:14:09 am »
It certainly creates an issue of public trust, might lead someone like me to question RCMP data that placed blame for deaths of Missing and Murdered Indigenous women "mostly" Indigenous men ... and fails to even mention serial killers, like the real perpetrator was in that case.

Do we even know how widespread the practice is of deleting information that doesn't fit the 'popular narrative' in criminal cases? Is it worse than in other police forces? Given the vastness and often remoteness of RCMP jurisdictions across Canada, is it more likely that RCMP officers are inclined to make the evidence fit a chosen narrative?

146 years of NWMP/RCMP service all across the country, and much less public accountability than other forces, it seems to me. That alone is a recipe for an ingrown and corrupted service. 

I wouldn't entirely put responsibility for that on the RCMP, either: Who else helps sustain that? Whose needs are served by that? Who are the power brokers?

is your hope/intent to make this a conspiracy thread?
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Online Granny

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2019, 04:43:50 pm »
is your hope/intent to make this a conspiracy thread?

It isn't 'a conspiracy' to inquire into, and evaluate a public service. We are entitled to know what we're paying for,
The public isn't the enemy:
We're the employer!!


If you read my whole post, you will see that I'm inquiring mainly about the pressures that are applied to the RCMP by other players, who are also on the public payroll.
So I repeat:
"Prosecutors failed to disclose information and RCMP deleted files that pointed to another possible suspect."
The prosecutor knew.
Did the prosecutor influence the officer in some way to delete information?
And how commonly is that done?

Questions needing answers ...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 12:29:50 am by Granny »
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Online Granny

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2019, 02:11:37 pm »
Hey, squid (re "dumb) ... I get that you are supportive of police. Are you also supportive of bad policing behaviour, like deleting evidence?
Note that my focus is ... who is pressuring police in such situations?

Online Granny

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2019, 10:54:46 am »
The RCMP has been sitting for two years on a watchdog report into alleged Mountie surveillance of anti-oil protesters, a civil liberties group charges.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-watchdog-oil-spying-1.5246354
The association lodged a complaint in February 2014 with the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP. It alleged the national police force improperly collected and shared information about people and groups who peacefully opposed the planned Northern Gateway pipeline project and attended National Energy Board meetings.

The association said monitoring, surveillance and information sharing with other government agencies and the private sector created a chilling effect for those who might wish to take part in hearings or other public discussions on petroleum issues.

The commission launched a public interest investigation and completed an interim report into the matter in June 2017, forwarding it to the RCMP for comment on the conclusions and recommendations.

The commission cannot prepare a final report until the RCMP commissioner responds, which also means the findings can't be disclosed to the civil liberties association or the public.

In March, Paul Champ, a lawyer for the association, wrote commission chair Michelaine Lahaie to express concern that more than five years had passed since the complaint was filed, saying the RCMP may have violated the fundamental freedoms of Canadians exercising their democratic rights.


Who gives the orders RCMP to do surveillance on members of the public attending public meetings of the National Energy Board that is funded by the public?
Do they do surveillance on everybody who attends, or just those opposed to corporate proposals?
Do corporations pay the RCMP salaries for their work? <sarcasm>
The RCMP are sharing this illicit surveillance info on individuals with other government agencies, AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR???
And sitting on the report for two years?

Do RCMP take orders directly from corporations?
Do the orders come indirectly from politicians supporting corporate proposals?

Who tells the RCMP which proposals are matters of 'national security' so they 'know' who to surveil?

Who oversees the RCMP to ensure that they are accountable to the public, who pay their salaries?
Why did an oversight body not notice the RCMP sitting on this report of their inappropriate and politically partisan surveillance of members of the public who pay their salaries?

There's a huge, 150+ year old stench of political and corporate influence, pressure and direction of the RCMP.

 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 11:18:46 am by Granny »

Offline waldo

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2019, 11:56:45 am »
The RCMP are sharing this illicit surveillance info on individuals with other government agencies, AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR???

are you making an unsubstantiated statement or are you asking a question... make up your mind, hey!

on the broader level, speaking of making up your mind, clearly you've done so already - yes?

Offline wilber

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2019, 01:29:47 pm »
The RCMP needs to respond. On the other hand, if particular individuals or groups present a genuine security threat to a company, that company deserves to know about it, just as an individual would.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online Granny

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2019, 01:45:11 pm »
are you making an unsubstantiated statement or are you asking a question... make up your mind, hey!
Waldo, it's irritating that you don't read before responding.
Obviously, I was repeating the information provided in the article quoted above:
"...information sharing with other government agencies and the private sector ..."
For substantiation of that, we'd have to see the  report of the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission (CRCC)... but the fact that the RCMP are sitting on that CRCC report so it can't be released publicly pretty much substantiates the complaints, imo.

Quote
on the broader level, speaking of making up your mind, clearly you've done so already - yes?

Gee ... let's see ...
*RCMP are accused of improper surveillance of Canadians exercising legal democratic rights.
*CRCC investigates, writes report, sends report to RCMP for response, so both CRCC report and RCMP response can be made public at once.
*RCMP sits on CRCC report refusing to respond ... for two years now.
*RCMP Commissioner refuses to answer CRCC requests for RCMP response to the report.

It isn't hard to 'make up one's mind' that the RCMP  refusal to respond means that they are guilty, and are obstructing to prevent the report from being made public.

But do tell, waldo, what's your take on this?
Did the RCMP act improperly in collecting surveillance on Canadians attending NEB hearings, and distributing it to other government agencies and the private sector?
Has the RCMP again acted improperly by failing to address the CRCC report and recommendations, effectively preventing it from becoming public?

Offline waldo

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2019, 02:00:22 pm »
Waldo, it's irritating that you don't read before responding.
Obviously, I was repeating the information provided in the article quoted above:
"...information sharing with other government agencies and the private sector ..."
For substantiation of that, we'd have to see the  report of the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission (CRCC)... but the fact that the RCMP are sitting on that CRCC report so it can't be released publicly pretty much substantiates the complaints, imo.

your unsubstantiated OPINION is noted! Again, you bold-highlighted a definitive statement! You presume to 'seek cover' in making/repeating said definitive statement by closing it with multiple "?".

Gee ... let's see ...
*RCMP are accused of improper surveillance of Canadians exercising legal democratic rights.
*CRCC investigates, writes report, sends report to RCMP for response, so both CRCC report and RCMP response can be made public at once.
*RCMP sits on CRCC report refusing to respond ... for two years now.
*RCMP Commissioner refuses to answer CRCC requests for RCMP response to the report.

It isn't hard to 'make up one's mind' that the RCMP  refusal to respond means that they are guilty, and are obstructing to prevent the report from being made public.

But do tell, waldo, what's your take on this?
Did the RCMP act improperly in collecting surveillance on Canadians attending NEB hearings, and distributing it to other government agencies and the private sector?
Has the RCMP again acted improperly by failing to address the CRCC report and recommendations, effectively preventing it from becoming public?

you're gleefully running with nothing more than accusations... and base all your baseless criticism on the report not being released. I would expect there are matters of National Security involved - possibly actions taken as directed by government/CSIS. Hey didja know there's STILL continued ONGOING concerns related to TMX - apparently you could care less about possibly compromising investigations with the report release.

Online Granny

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2019, 02:04:16 pm »
The RCMP needs to respond. On the other hand, if particular individuals or groups present a genuine security threat to a company, that company deserves to know about it, just as an individual would.

We would have to see the report to know that, wouldn't we?
But I think we can assume that no security threats were found as no one has been charged with any threats or crimes against said company before or after these complaints were made against the RCMP ... 5 years ago!

You raise an issue that is likely addressed in the CRCC report (that the RCMP won't let us see): Can the RCMP conduct widespread surveillance on Canadians without just cause?
The fact of someone's opposition to a corporate development is not 'just cause' to assume any criminal intent, nor criminal behaviour.
The fact of someone's opposition to a corporate development is Constitutionally protected freedom of expression and assembly.

Upholding individual Constitutional rights is an RCMP responsibility.
Pushing through a corporate for-profit pipeline is not an RCMP responsibility. Improper surveillance
to harass, intimidate and threaten Canadians, is certainly not an RCMP duty, but an abuse of their duties to the public who pay their salaries.

Offline waldo

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2019, 02:09:53 pm »
Improper surveillance to harass, intimidate and threaten Canadians, is certainly not an RCMP duty, but an abuse of their duties to the public who pay their salaries.

 ;D more of your unsubstantiated statements! Well done

Online Granny

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2019, 02:14:37 pm »
your unsubstantiated OPINION is noted! Again, you bold-highlighted a definitive statement! You presume to 'seek cover' in making/repeating said definitive statement by closing it with multiple "?".

you're gleefully running with nothing more than accusations... and base all your baseless criticism on the report not being released. I would expect there are matters of National Security involved - possibly actions taken as directed by government/CSIS. Hey didja know there's STILL continued ONGOING concerns related to TMX - apparently you could care less about possibly compromising investigations with the report release.

That's all your own speculation, waldo. The RCMP have not made such claims. The RCMP have simply refused to communicate with the CRCC about the report at all. The RCMP have not raised any issues of "National Security", or given any reasons at all for not responding.

And btw ... re your statement:
 "...possibly actions taken as directed by government ..."
You are aware that that's impossible, right?
 You are aware of the necessary separation between government and police?
You are aware that "government cannot direct the operations of police"?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 11:22:51 pm by Granny »

Offline waldo

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Re: RCMP
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2019, 02:24:57 pm »
That's all your own speculation, waldo. The RCMP have not made such claims. The RCMP have simply refused to communicate with the CRCC about the report at all. The RCMP have not raised any issues of "National Security", or given any reasons at all for not responding.

hey now! What's the first-rule of Fight Club?