Author Topic: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead  (Read 603 times)

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Offline JMT

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2020, 08:16:14 pm »
You don't get to say "highdsight is 20/20" when something entirely foreseeable happens.  If you store your bowling ball on the top shelf in your closet, and it rolls of and brains somebody when they open the door, you don't get to excuse yourself by saying "hindsight is 20/20", because that was an entirely foreseeable outcome.  You don't say "hindsight is 20/20", you say "I really screwed up."

The police were given a credible report of domestic violence. They were given an eyewitness statement that he had illegal firearms. He already had a record with police and a known history of anger issues.  Violence was entirely predictable.  Obviously nobody could have expected an outcome this horrific, but it was entirely predictable that somebody-- most likely his female partner-- was going to get hurt or killed. They were given all the information they needed, and they did nothing.

This wasn't a failure of gun control laws, this was a failure of policing. Period.  Any attempt to deflect blame from the RCMP to legal gun owners is dishonest and ridiculous.

At this point we are like one of those Japanese houses with oiled-paper walls.  You can put up a thicker door, you can put a deadbolt on the door, a bar on the door, a security plate on the door, but continuing to focus your efforts on the door does nothing further to make the paper house more secure.

If the police won't even listen to an eyewitness claim that he had illegal firearms, what good does any of this do? Laws only work if the police will bother to enforce them.

This was a failure of policing.

 -k

Exactly what level of police state are you comfortable with? I, for one, don't want officers arresting, searching, or interrogating people bases on 'information'.

Like I said, hindsight is 20/20. We can learn from this, but we can't go back. Accusing one of the world's most professional police force of incompetence over human failures is something.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2020, 08:42:33 pm »
Exactly what level of police state are you comfortable with? I, for one, don't want officers arresting, searching, or interrogating people bases on 'information'.

Like I said, hindsight is 20/20. We can learn from this, but we can't go back. Accusing one of the world's most professional police force of incompetence over human failures is something.

So if someone reports illegal weapons, police shouldn't react because it is a violation of privacy. Do the police actually have to see the weapons before they do anything? If you own restricted firearms legally, the police can enter your home to ensure they are stored properly.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline JMT

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2020, 08:52:00 pm »
So if someone reports illegal weapons, police shouldn't react because it is a violation of privacy.

How far would you have them go based on hearsay? How many of your actual rights, as opposed to mythical gun rights, are you willing to give up?
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Offline wilber

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2020, 09:24:02 pm »
How far would you have them go based on hearsay? How many of your actual rights, as opposed to mythical gun rights, are you willing to give up?

Since when did someone saying that they and their husband had personally seen them become hearsay?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline JMT

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2020, 09:26:23 pm »
Since when did someone saying that they and their husband had personally seen them become hearsay?

Since always.

Offline wilber

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2020, 11:28:02 pm »
Since always.

So if you see something and tell the police, it is just heresy and they should ignore you.
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Online the_squid

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2020, 11:47:28 pm »
So if you see something and tell the police, it is just heresy and they should ignore you.

I am guessing that the report from these people about all the “illegal guns” probably wasn’t strong enough to get a search warrant...  despite what they told the press.

Police aren’t shy about looking for guns when they’re reported.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2020, 11:53:51 pm »
Exactly what level of police state are you comfortable with? I, for one, don't want officers arresting, searching, or interrogating people bases on 'information'.

On the one hand we have people like Squidward saying that the government should do everything possible to prevent a mass shooting, and yet we have this example of the police being spoon-fed the information they needed to actually prevent a tragedy, and you guys are trying to rationalize their inaction by saying "yeah well that would have violated his privacy."

Well guess what:  all this talk from Bill Blair and the Prime Minister and others about doing more to reduce the flow of illegal guns coming into Canada?  Completely worthless if the police aren't willing to do the police-work required to actually investigate.

If somebody gave the RCMP a tip about an alleged white nationalist or Muslim extremist who was asking around town about how to buy a large quantity of fertilizer, how do you think the authorities would weigh the question of public safety vs privacy?  If the police received a tip like that, do you think they'd say "well, we can't violate this individual's privacy based on just some 'information'"?

Bill Blair also talked about "red flag laws", which are also worthless if the police aren't going to bother doing police work. We already have red flag laws.  One of the first things you see when you go to the RCMP firearms page is information for reporting somebody who you think might be a danger. If a credible tip isn't enough to interest the police in investigating somebody, what does it take? Wandering down mainstreet with a gun in plain sight?

You and Squidward and Bill Blair and PM Trudeau all talk a big game about how they aren't just harassing licensed gun owners, they're Doing More~~~! to stop illegal guns.

But presented with this example of how the police could have and should have Done More~~~! your response is "b-b-but privacy!"  The truth is that you don't have the courage of your convictions, and you don't really believe the police should Do More~~~!

The truth is you're not okay with doing the police work required to actually crack down on illegal guns, because you understand that there has to be a balance between providing security and maintaining peoples' freedoms.

Which is as it should be. But don't pretend like further harassment of legal gun owners is going to compensate for it.

Like I said, hindsight is 20/20. We can learn from this, but we can't go back. Accusing one of the world's most professional police force of incompetence over human failures is something.

The RCMP have a lot of "human failures" on their resume.  Their track record is hardly above reproach.  And in this instance there's plenty of questions to be asked. The first is why no amber alert was issued. The second is how this guy who was a walking red flag slipped through their fingers.  A third is why so little information is forthcoming about the details of this incident, and why what little data they've surrendered has been so heavily redacted.

 -k
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Offline waldo

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2020, 12:39:10 am »
On the one hand we have people like Squidward saying that the government should do everything possible to prevent a mass shooting, and yet we have this example of the police being spoon-fed the information they needed to actually prevent a tragedy

if only you could cite support your claims, hey! The accounts I've read state the RCMP have no record of an alleged complaint lodged by the 'former neighbour' (a supposed complaint of assault by the killer - assault said to have been witnessed by several people... and of the killer owning illegal weapons). By the former neighbour's own account she stated the RCMP advised her they couldn't act on the assault claim without the help of witnesses - who, apparently, were unwilling to come forward and go on record.

be better member kimmy - be better!

But don't pretend like further harassment of legal gun owners is going to compensate for it.

is it harassment to set up an exchange program to pay you 'fair-market' value for your guns? Why do you need... really need... the firearms you're alleging harassment over?
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Offline JMT

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2020, 01:05:35 am »
On the one hand we have people like Squidward saying that the government should do everything possible to prevent a mass shooting, and yet we have this example of the police being spoon-fed the information they needed to actually prevent a tragedy, and you guys are trying to rationalize their inaction by saying "yeah well that would have violated his privacy."

Well guess what:  all this talk from Bill Blair and the Prime Minister and others about doing more to reduce the flow of illegal guns coming into Canada?  Completely worthless if the police aren't willing to do the police-work required to actually investigate.

If somebody gave the RCMP a tip about an alleged white nationalist or Muslim extremist who was asking around town about how to buy a large quantity of fertilizer, how do you think the authorities would weigh the question of public safety vs privacy?  If the police received a tip like that, do you think they'd say "well, we can't violate this individual's privacy based on just some 'information'"?

Bill Blair also talked about "red flag laws", which are also worthless if the police aren't going to bother doing police work. We already have red flag laws.  One of the first things you see when you go to the RCMP firearms page is information for reporting somebody who you think might be a danger. If a credible tip isn't enough to interest the police in investigating somebody, what does it take? Wandering down mainstreet with a gun in plain sight?

You and Squidward and Bill Blair and PM Trudeau all talk a big game about how they aren't just harassing licensed gun owners, they're Doing More~~~! to stop illegal guns.

But presented with this example of how the police could have and should have Done More~~~! your response is "b-b-but privacy!"  The truth is that you don't have the courage of your convictions, and you don't really believe the police should Do More~~~!

The truth is you're not okay with doing the police work required to actually crack down on illegal guns, because you understand that there has to be a balance between providing security and maintaining peoples' freedoms.

Which is as it should be. But don't pretend like further harassment of legal gun owners is going to compensate for it.

The RCMP have a lot of "human failures" on their resume.  Their track record is hardly above reproach.  And in this instance there's plenty of questions to be asked. The first is why no amber alert was issued. The second is how this guy who was a walking red flag slipped through their fingers.  A third is why so little information is forthcoming about the details of this incident, and why what little data they've surrendered has been so heavily redacted.

 -k

If you think this is about just privacy idk what to say.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 01:07:07 am by John Mark Taylor »

Offline wilber

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2020, 09:05:49 am »
I am guessing that the report from these people about all the “illegal guns” probably wasn’t strong enough to get a search warrant...  despite what they told the press.

Police aren’t shy about looking for guns when they’re reported.

Obviously they were wrong.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline kimmy

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2020, 09:28:31 am »
If you think this is about just privacy idk what to say.

Here's why you don't know what to say:

You're not comfortable with the kind of potentially invasive police work that would be required to actually prevent illegal firearms from entering the country, but you can't articulate how Bill Blair's promises of tougher border enforcement and red-flag laws and so-on will have any practical value without that kind of police work.

That's why you don't know what to say.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2020, 09:36:56 am »
if only you could cite support your claims, hey! The accounts I've read state the RCMP have no record of an alleged complaint lodged by the 'former neighbour' (a supposed complaint of assault by the killer - assault said to have been witnessed by several people... and of the killer owning illegal weapons). By the former neighbour's own account she stated the RCMP advised her they couldn't act on the assault claim without the help of witnesses - who, apparently, were unwilling to come forward and go on record.

The police don't actually need the victim's cooperation to investigate domestic abuse.

is it harassment to set up an exchange program to pay you 'fair-market' value for your guns?

If you prefer some other phrase to harassment, that's up to you.

Why do you need... really need... the firearms you're alleging harassment over?

There are many, many things that people don't need.  We don't need cars that go 3 times the legal speed limit. We don't need recreational watercraft. We don't need backcountry snowmobiling. We don't need swimming pools. We don't need skiing.  All that stuff kills people too, and isn't needed.   For that matter, we don't need alcohol or tobacco either, and that stuff costs far more lives than guns.

We don't decide to ban stuff based on whether people need it.

 -k
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Offline wilber

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2020, 10:02:22 am »
Life would be really boring if we banned all the things we don't need which kill people.
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Offline JMT

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2020, 10:28:16 am »
Here's why you don't know what to say:

I's not that at all.  We have guaranteed constitutional rights when it comes to unreasonable search and seizure. I'll have them ban every gun in existence before I give that up, because that's actually important.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 12:44:40 pm by John Mark Taylor »