Author Topic: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead  (Read 571 times)

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Offline the_squid

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Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« on: April 19, 2020, 08:25:48 pm »
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5537598

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At least 16 people were killed during a gunman's bloody 12-hour rampage through several Nova Scotia communities, and police warn there may be more victims.

In an update on Sunday evening, RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki said police know of at least 16 victims, besides the shooter. She also confirmed the incident is not terror-related at this time.

Nova Scotia RCMP said people were killed in several locations across the province, including a veteran RCMP officer.

Police said there may be more victims who have not been discovered yet and their investigation continues.

RCMP identified the gunman as Gabriel Wortman, 51. His rampage began late Saturday night in the small community of Portapique, N.S., about 40 kilometres west of Truro, N.S. He led police on a chase Sunday morning along one of the province's busiest highways.

The chase ended near a gas station about 35 kilometres north of Halifax in Enfield, N.S., around 11:40 a.m. local time. Police confirmed Sunday evening that the gunman was dead.

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Offline Omni

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2020, 08:40:20 pm »
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5537598

Wow, I listened to the CBC tv interview earlier today when they said it was at least 10 and probably more. It's a shocker for sure and I used to live in NS and they were as nice a people as one could hope for. My heart goes out of course to those who have lost loved ones, and overall to the people who obviously must be in shock. Can you imagine how disturbing it would be if you happened to be a patient of this man. Hang in there Nova Scotian's we're by your side. 


Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2020, 05:41:36 pm »
I don't give a **** about who he was, National Post.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2020, 02:20:23 am »
Good thing these cops were lousy shots...   whoever they were firing at probably $hit their pants!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/confusion-over-cruiser-safety-vest-led-rcmp-to-shot-at-person-who-wasn-t-n-s-gunman-1.5559321

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Confusion over a parked police cruiser and someone wearing a safety vest led two RCMP officers to start shooting at a person at a central Nova Scotia firehall during the manhunt for the gunman in last month's mass shooting, sources confirmed to CBC.

Officers missed and no one was injured in the April 19 incident at the Onslow Belmont Fire Brigade hall, which was left peppered with bullet holes. The gunman at the centre of the manhunt was not in the area at the time.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2020, 12:34:28 pm »
Aside from firing at the wrong guy, aside from the inexplicable failure to issue an emergency broadcast alert, the cops overlooked red flags in the gunman's behavior.

https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/he-was-a-psychopath/

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It began, Boe said, around 2004, not long after GW bought a house in Portapique.

    They weren’t even in that house for a year when [GW’s partner] ran over to my house one day saying that Gabriel was beating her up and she was scared. She wanted to hide somewhere because he had blocked her car with his truck so she couldn’t get out. But she managed to get away from the house.

Boe said she told GW’s partner that she needed to get help, that there were “a lot of services” and “a lot of places” that would keep her safe. Boe said she was unable to convince her, because, according to Boe, GW’s partner said that there was no way, because he was going to kill her.

But why didn't she tell the police?!  Well, she did:

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Boe said she learned GW had again physically abused his partner, this time on a piece of property he owned:

    And he had [her] on the ground. He was choking her, screaming at her, telling everybody around… Just screaming at her and stuff … It was bad, bad, bad, bad.


Boe said the assault was witnessed by one of GW’s relatives, who was a good friend of hers when he lived in Portapique and who is now in a long-term care facility, following a stroke. Two other men also watched it happen.

When the relative told her about the incident, Boe called the RCMP. The responding officers asked if any of the three men would testify to witnessing the assault. Boe didn’t know. However, she did tell the responding officers that “he’s got a **** load of illegal weapons. I’ve seen them. My husband has seen them.”


Here's what happened next:

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Boe said she and her husband know what weapons Canadians are allowed to own with a Firearms Acquisition Certificate, and that they knew GW’s were not legal. So she told the RCMP that, and then in their presence, she called GW’s relative and put him on speakerphone so the Mounties could hear him:

    So I called [the relative] and I said… “would you be willing to talk to the RCMP about what happened with [GW’s partner] and the illegal weapons that Gabriel has?” And he said, “no way, because he’s already told me he’ll kill me, because he’s already told me that he’s killed people in the United States.

    And I said, “Okay …  just chill. Just relax. Don’t worry about it.” I hung up and the RCMP basically said, “the only way that we can actually get the information on this and prove it … like for her being beaten and strangled and stuff like that. She has to say it.”  And there’s no way that she would do that. Gabriel had her under his thumb. And I mean, literally. If her family came over, he would be right beside her. So she wouldn’t say anything to them about what happened at all
.

22 people are dead because the RCMP suck at their job.

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Offline the_squid

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2020, 01:19:13 pm »
Aside from firing at the wrong guy, aside from the inexplicable failure to issue an emergency broadcast alert, the cops overlooked red flags in the gunman's behavior.

https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/he-was-a-psychopath/

But why didn't she tell the police?!  Well, she did:


Here's what happened next:

22 people are dead because the RCMP suck at their job.


I’m not willing to jump to that conclusion, especially on the basis of your linked article.  If no one testified to witnessing the assault, and the victim wouldn’t tell the police the truth, what are they to do?  They can’t search for guns on someone’s say-so.... someone who heard from someone about the assault. 

You would be freaking out about police overreach and “the war on gun owners” if the police were allowed to do this. 

It could be that the police were incompetent, and it seems in some ways, they were.  Not sending out an emergency broadcast seems pretty damn bad.  But, again, this isn’t necessarily a policing issue...  it could be an issue with the Province...   I have no idea who is responsible for giving the cops the go ahead to send out a broadcast, or what the routine is for doing so. 

It’s going to take an independent public inquiry to get to the bottom of all the things that went wrong here. 
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Offline JMT

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2020, 03:43:10 pm »

22 people are dead because the RCMP suck at their job.


I always find that Monday morning is the best time to watch football, too.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2020, 11:47:42 pm »

I’m not willing to jump to that conclusion, especially on the basis of your linked article.  If no one testified to witnessing the assault, and the victim wouldn’t tell the police the truth, what are they to do? 

Police don't need the victim's permission to investigate domestic violence allegations.

They can’t search for guns on someone’s say-so.... someone who heard from someone about the assault.

This is a guy with a known history of violence.
https://news.sky.com/story/father-of-canadas-worst-ever-mass-murderer-ive-contemplated-suicide-11978735
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2020/04/21/death-toll-could-rise-in-nova-scotia-as-investigation-into-mass-killing-continues.html

Assaulted a teenager on the street, required to take anger management and prohibited from owning weapons for 9 months. Beat up his own father. Threatened to kill his uncle. 

You've got a guy with a known history of violence, a credible allegation of domestic violence, an eyewitness claiming they've seen illegal firearms. All of this should have been enough to amount to "probable cause" to for police to investigate.

You would be freaking out about police overreach and “the war on gun owners” if the police were allowed to do this. 

This is a bullshit response for several reasons:

 (1) clearly neither you nor the government nor the RCMP give a **** about the feelings of gun owners, so citing the feelings of gun owners as a reason why you don't think they should have investigated this guy is clearly a load of crap.

 (2) legal gun owners, those of us who went through the process and got our licenses, have no complaint about the police investigating a guy with a known history of violence and a credible allegation of illegally acquired firearms. Legal gun owners have no interest in letting criminals obtain firearms and no interest in preventing the police from investigating people who have illegally acquired them.

 (3) I wouldn't be complaining about "the war on gun owners" if they did this, because the Firearms Act already gives the government the power to legally inspect my home for firearms on nothing more than a "reasonable belief" that there might be something amiss.  We have already agreed to let the firearms office inspect our collections at their convenience. We signed up for that when we applied for the license.  You have a PAL, don't you?  You should already know this.

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Inspection

    102 (1) Subject to section 104, for the purpose of ensuring compliance with this Act and the regulations, an inspector may at any reasonable time enter and inspect any place where the inspector believes on reasonable grounds a business is being carried on or there is a record of a business, any place in which the inspector believes on reasonable grounds there is a gun collection or a record in relation to a gun collection or any place in which the inspector believes on reasonable grounds there is a prohibited firearm or there are more than 10 firearms and may

        (a) open any container that the inspector believes on reasonable grounds contains a firearm or other thing in respect of which this Act or the regulations apply;

        (b) examine any firearm and examine any other thing that the inspector finds and take samples of it;

        (c) conduct any tests or analyses or take any measurements; and

        (d) require any person to produce for examination or copying any records, books of account or other documents that the inspector believes on reasonable grounds contain information that is relevant to the enforcement of this Act or the regulations.

As well it needs to be pointed out that the police can and do confiscate firearms from licensed gun owners if they have reasonable concerns that the license holder may be a danger to themselves or other people. 


But all that only applies to PAL/RPAL holders.  Doesn't it seem ridiculous that if the RCMP gets a tip that a PAL holder has a gun that they shouldn't have, they can investigate immediately, but in this situation where the RCMP got a tip that somebody who doesn't have a license at all has a gun they shouldn't have, who also has a known history of violence and a credible allegation of domestic violence, their reaction is "meh, what can we do?"

It has a Monty Pythonesque quality to it.

"That bloke has firearms! It ain't legal!"
"Yeh, but ye see 'e ain't got a license."
"I know 'e ain't got a license, that's what makes it illegal!"
"Well if 'e 'ad a license we could go investigate, coz o' the Firearms Act. But since 'e ain't got a license, ain't nuffin' we can do, see?"
"Well if 'e 'ad a license it wouldn't be illegal!"
"Well that's a real conundrum, innit?"

It could be that the police were incompetent, and it seems in some ways, they were.  Not sending out an emergency broadcast seems pretty damn bad.  But, again, this isn’t necessarily a policing issue...  it could be an issue with the Province...   I have no idea who is responsible for giving the cops the go ahead to send out a broadcast, or what the routine is for doing so. 

It’s going to take an independent public inquiry to get to the bottom of all the things that went wrong here.

There should definitely be.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2020, 11:50:50 pm »
I always find that Monday morning is the best time to watch football, too.

They didn't bother investigating a credible allegation of domestic violence and an eyewitness claim of illegal guns, involving a guy with a known history of violence and anger management issues...

 ...and your response is "yeah well hindsight is 20/20"?

 -k
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Offline JMT

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2020, 12:40:13 am »
They didn't bother investigating a credible allegation of domestic violence and an eyewitness claim of illegal guns, involving a guy with a known history of violence and anger management issues...

 ...and your response is "yeah well hindsight is 20/20"?

 -k

Hindsight is 20/20. That’s why we need to reduce access to guns from all sources, seeing how easily this guy got them.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2020, 02:09:16 pm »
Hindsight is 20/20.

You don't get to say "highdsight is 20/20" when something entirely foreseeable happens.  If you store your bowling ball on the top shelf in your closet, and it rolls of and brains somebody when they open the door, you don't get to excuse yourself by saying "hindsight is 20/20", because that was an entirely foreseeable outcome.  You don't say "hindsight is 20/20", you say "I really screwed up."

The police were given a credible report of domestic violence. They were given an eyewitness statement that he had illegal firearms. He already had a record with police and a known history of anger issues.  Violence was entirely predictable.  Obviously nobody could have expected an outcome this horrific, but it was entirely predictable that somebody-- most likely his female partner-- was going to get hurt or killed. They were given all the information they needed, and they did nothing.

This wasn't a failure of gun control laws, this was a failure of policing. Period.  Any attempt to deflect blame from the RCMP to legal gun owners is dishonest and ridiculous.

That’s why we need to reduce access to guns from all sources, seeing how easily this guy got them.

At this point we are like one of those Japanese houses with oiled-paper walls.  You can put up a thicker door, you can put a deadbolt on the door, a bar on the door, a security plate on the door, but continuing to focus your efforts on the door does nothing further to make the paper house more secure.

If the police won't even listen to an eyewitness claim that he had illegal firearms, what good does any of this do? Laws only work if the police will bother to enforce them.

This was a failure of policing.

 -k
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2020, 03:14:00 pm »
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If the police won't even listen to an eyewitness claim that he had illegal firearms...

Cite

Offline kimmy

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2020, 03:36:27 pm »
Cite

I already posted an article supporting that.  More have come out since to verify that. You already tried to deflect that with your super-dumb post about how gun owners would be mad if police investigated it, remember?

 -k
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Rampage murder in NS - at least 16 dead
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2020, 03:43:53 pm »
I already posted an article supporting that.  More have come out since to verify that. You already tried to deflect that with your super-dumb post about how gun owners would be mad if police investigated it, remember?

 -k

No.  I commented on that article that these people had 2nd hand information that there were illegal guns. 
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