Author Topic: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name  (Read 4431 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2018, 09:12:19 pm »
Of course but it is unlikely we will ever get rid of it and if we do, people will find other reasons to discriminate. Last week there was news article about five illegal ride sharing companies in Richmond BC that will not pick up non Chinese customers, so I am not going to feel guilty about racism that occurred 50 years before I was born or judge it by today's standards.

I'm not suggesting anyone feel guilty about any issue/event they weren't party to, nor had any control over. I doubt the guy who scrubbed John A's name off his bar did so due to guilt, but rather due simply to business. And you're right, discrimination is far from over.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2018, 10:19:05 am »
Perhaps if you would have been beaten or buggered in a residential school you might feel hesitatant to support an establishment advertising the name of the man who in large part contributed to your abuse.

Even the suggestion Sir John A was in any way responsible for the abuse is bullshit. You might accuse him of lacking 21st century cultural sensitivity in trying to pull natives into the greater cultural world of Canada but the idea he had sexual molestation in mind is the kind of lunacy one expects from the far left.

As for beatings. So what? Kids who got out of line were beaten as a matter of course back then.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:51:25 am by JMT »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2018, 10:21:01 am »
s

All I say is let people make their own judgements based on the facts, all the facts. I think if we wish to overcome racism, we must first concede that we have, generally speaking exercised racism for some time.

Which is a bad thing if you're white. But if you're a native hey, no problemo.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2018, 10:37:51 am »
Even the suggestion Sir John A was in any way responsible for the abuse is bullshit. You might accuse him of lacking 21st century cultural sensitivity in trying to pull natives into the greater cultural world of Canada but the idea he had sexual molestation in mind is the kind of lunacy one expects from the far left.

As for beatings. So what? Kids who got out of line were beaten as a matter of course back then.

I can't find any suggestion that Macdonald was ever abused as a child, molested anyone or mistreated his children. Quite the contrary.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:51:46 am by JMT »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2018, 10:54:35 am »
I can't find any suggestion that Macdonald was ever abused as a child, molested anyone or mistreated his children. Quite the contrary.

The cane was routinely used against children in even the best schools for any violation of rules, any insolence, any missed assignment. Spare the rod and spoil the child was not merely a trite phrase. It was the common belief. Sir John A's younger brother was beaten to death at the age of five by a drunken babysitter with a cane.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2018, 12:13:38 pm »
The cane was routinely used against children in even the best schools for any violation of rules, any insolence, any missed assignment. Spare the rod and spoil the child was not merely a trite phrase. It was the common belief. Sir John A's younger brother was beaten to death at the age of five by a drunken babysitter with a cane.

What Sir John carried out was racism. The child abuse was a result thereof.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2018, 02:25:06 pm »
What Sir John carried out was racism. The child abuse was a result thereof.

By whose standards? Yours? Not many thought it was racist back then. In fact, they thought it was awfully charitable for him to think these 'savages' were even remotely capable of living among white folks, even with education. and angered that he was spending all that money trying to civilize them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2018, 03:05:20 pm »
By whose standards? Yours? Not many thought it was racist back then. In fact, they thought it was awfully charitable for him to think these 'savages' were even remotely capable of living among white folks, even with education. and angered that he was spending all that money trying to civilize them.

Once again another flimsy excuse to try and exxonerate the racism of the past. Give it up and call a spade a spade for once.

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2018, 03:15:26 pm »
Once again another flimsy excuse to try and exxonerate the racism of the past. Give it up and call a spade a spade for once.

So judgemental. Are you one of those who thinks future generations will judge you to be without reproach and if so, how could you ever assume such a thing?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2018, 03:21:39 pm »
So judgemental. Are you one of those who thinks future generations will judge you to be without reproach and if so, how could you ever assume such a thing?

I assume no such thing, I just calls 'em as I see's 'em as I go along. John A was a racist while at the same time having s vision for uniting the country which worked out well IMO. I choose not to ignore the former due to the latter. That's simply willful blindness.

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2018, 03:25:32 pm »
I assume no such thing, I just calls 'em as I see's 'em as I go along. John A was a racist while at the same time having s vision for uniting the country which worked out well IMO. I choose not to ignore the former due to the latter. That's simply willful blindness.

Who’s ignoring it? The point being made is that it has to be judged by the standards of his time. To do otherwise is not fair to anyone.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2018, 03:52:32 pm »
Who’s ignoring it? The point being made is that it has to be judged by the standards of his time. To do otherwise is not fair to anyone.

Fair? Fair to who? I guess we could apply the same idea to slavery: it was OK back in the day to tie **** to a tree, then send them to work in the fields, and beat them if they didn't pick enough cotton, so if it was acceptable then, why should we condemn that activity now? That kind of thinking could take us backwards.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2018, 04:04:26 pm »
Fair? Fair to who? I guess we could apply the same idea to slavery: it was OK back in the day to tie **** to a tree, then send them to work in the fields, and beat them if they didn't pick enough cotton, so if it was acceptable then, why should we condemn that activity now? That kind of thinking could take us backwards.

No one is saying we should beat kids with canes today like we did back then, are they? It's a different society and our culture and values have progressed considerably. But back then it was acceptable. And so judging people by today's standards for simply behaving in keeping with THEIR society back then is hypocritical. If you were alive back then you'd be looking for a  few good slaves too, assuming you lived in the south and had money. Likewise if you were a rich merchant living on the North African coast you'd be eagerly looking to buy one of those white slaves taken off the American and western ships captured. You wouldn't think it was wrong because your society said it was fine and legal and normal.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2018, 04:06:52 pm »
Fair? Fair to who? I guess we could apply the same idea to slavery: it was OK back in the day to tie **** to a tree, then send them to work in the fields, and beat them if they didn't pick enough cotton, so if it was acceptable then, why should we condemn that activity now? That kind of thinking could take us backwards.

I agree and I think even then they knew it was wrong, they just didn't care.  It's the way we are presently with animals where most people know it's wrong to abuse animals, but it's the way it's always been so very little is done about it. 

People make fun of organizations like PETA and while I agree a lot of things they do is over the top, if it weren't for animal-rights groups, we wouldn't see a paradigm shift taking place where it's no longer socially acceptable to wear fur and abuse animals. 

Future generations will look back at us with the same horror, but it doesn't mean we are all ignorant.  People know the difference between right and wrong but either you care or you don't. 

Same with back then, most people understood that it's wrong to mistreat other races but Sir John just didn't care. 

He was on the wrong side of history.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2018, 04:12:29 pm »
I agree and I think even then they knew it was wrong, they just didn't care.  It's the way we are presently with animals where most people know it's wrong to abuse animals, but it's the way it's always been so very little is done about it. 

This is just dumb. Yes, people know its wrong to abuse animals, SO THEY DON'T. Aside from rare social defectives.
PETA is a collection of the lunatic fringe of the Left who have nothing useful to do with their lives.

Back then the natives weren't simply considered another race. They were considered barely human, savages, tree dwellers. Sir John's attempt to educate them and civilize them and spend government money doing it was probably considered somewhat enlightened.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum