Author Topic: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name  (Read 2467 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2018, 02:41:03 pm »
Jonathan Haidt, in one of his lectures, talks about how clear thinking fades away in the light of sacred beliefs. The Right has sacred beliefs, of course, and so does the Left. It's just that the Left's sacred beliefs have nothing to do with mainstream religion and more to do with ideology, values and morals. To a lot of the Left now that sacred belief is focused on inclusiveness and equality, which are great beliefs. But as Haidt said, quoting Aristotle, I believe,  any virtue taken to extremes becomes a vice. To a lot of the Left, particularly 'progressives', the fact our ancestors were neither inclusive nor believed in equality makes them horrible, immoral people worthy only of contempt and rejection.

And it seems that at least some of the right would prefer to sweep such shortcomings under the rug, never to be acknowledged.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2018, 02:49:10 pm »
Wouldn't a modernist conception of history also be a sacred belief? Historians haven't worked this way for the better part of a generation now.

No, because, again, according to Haidt, universities have become ideologically stratified along progressive lines. Where even a decade or so ago there the ratio was one conservative to five liberals it's now more like 20 liberals to 1 conservative, and most of the right wing types are in the hard sciences, business, etc. The liberal arts have very little conservatives. Haidt was doing an interview and said to the interviewer that in his field there is one single conservative. Period. He said people laugh when he says that, but no one has come up with a second.

And if you have ideological homogeneity you have no one questioning the ideologically born constructions of other academics.
No one questions, on the Right, that by our standards people from previous generations were grossly unenlightened, racist and unsophisticated (not just here by everywhere in the world) and also much more prone to violence. But aside from progressives we simply accept them with their warts. For progressives, their racism, sexism, and lack of inclusiveness seems to produce hardened attitudes of angry disapproval, which then rejects everything good they did.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2018, 02:55:39 pm »
And it seems that at least some of the right would prefer to sweep such shortcomings under the rug, never to be acknowledged.

I freely acknowledge the warts of Sir John and just about everyone else in his generation and the generations before. Where we differ is I also freely acknowledge that, if you compare them to the people and leaders of other nations of that time they still come out way ahead.

I mean, people forget the US navy and its weird amalgamation of the Marines (a navy with its own army) was born because of the way Muslim rulers along North Africa sent their ships to intercept and sack American trading vessels and take their people as slaves. The US navy was built to attack North African seaports, free American slaves,  and force the Moors to leave American ships alone.

They forget about the slaughter of the Indian-Muslim wars or the brutality of the empires in China and Japan. And they certainly don't even think about what 'enlightened' rulers were doing in South America or Africa. No, they dwell long and lovingly on the shocking immorality of our ancestors, much like that brainless suckhole Trudeau did at the United Nations in listing our various historical sins to people who, for the most part, have never given any thought whatever to the similar historical deficiencies of THEIR ancestors.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2018, 03:09:07 pm »
No, because, again, according to Haidt, universities have become ideologically stratified along progressive lines. Where even a decade or so ago there the ratio was one conservative to five liberals it's now more like 20 liberals to 1 conservative, and most of the right wing types are in the hard sciences, business, etc. The liberal arts have very little conservatives. Haidt was doing an interview and said to the interviewer that in his field there is one single conservative. Period. He said people laugh when he says that, but no one has come up with a second.

And if you have ideological homogeneity you have no one questioning the ideologically born constructions of other academics.
No one questions, on the Right, that by our standards people from previous generations were grossly unenlightened, racist and unsophisticated (not just here by everywhere in the world) and also much more prone to violence. But aside from progressives we simply accept them with their warts. For progressives, their racism, sexism, and lack of inclusiveness seems to produce hardened attitudes of angry disapproval, which then rejects everything good they did.

I think rather that what progressives wish to do is recognize the good with the bad, as opposed to simply ignoring the warts, which having them exposed seems to irk conservatives.

Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2018, 05:20:58 pm »
Anyone who won't go there or feels 'unsafe' because of the name is certainly someone whose patronage you shouldn't want. In fact, they sound like people most of us would like to slap for being such brainless snowflakes.

I really don't agree.  One of the people who told the owner he felt "unsafe" was an aboriginal who attended a residential school.  Who knows what that person went through, could be some real PTSD, and Sir John A was the PM who put that system into place.  Not sure many Jews would want to hang out in a place called Hitler's Pub (not saying Sir John A is equatable to the level of Hitler).

My opinion is that person and people like him are free to not go there, but changing the name for a select few who are sensitive about it is a stretch.  If we sensor everything that may offend someone, we'll have nothing left.  I once threw up as a kid after drinking orange juice, now I still associate orange juice with vomit so I can't drink it.  Ban orange juice?!?  If you don't like it, leave it, don't spoil the party for everyone else.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2018, 05:24:17 pm »
I wonder how many of these SJW's would like to be judged by whatever standards exist a century from now. No doubt some of them are arrogant enough to believe they would be above reproach. In the light of history, no one would argue that residential schools were a good idea but they were not out of step with the public sentiment or morality of the time. Even though they were initiated by Macdonald's government, they were a result of the Davin Report which studied the US system of boarding schools and used it as an example, The legislation was enacted by Parliament so there is plenty of responsibility to be spread around. Macdonald also cannot be held responsible for abuse under the system that continued for decades after his death under prime ministers from both parties.

How dare you bring facts into this debate!
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2018, 06:10:43 pm »
I think rather that what progressives wish to do is recognize the good with the bad, as opposed to simply ignoring the warts, which having them exposed seems to irk conservatives.

Oh? It's not conservatives running around demanding the names of presidents and prime ministers be stripped from buildings and trying to tear down their statues. You call that "recognizing the good with the bad"? I call it ignorant, fanatical vandalism and stupidity.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2018, 06:12:23 pm »
I really don't agree.  One of the people who told the owner he felt "unsafe" was an aboriginal who attended a residential school.

And? So what? How does he feel unsafe in a pub named after a guy he didn't even know had anything to do with the program until someone told him? Would he feel unsafe on parliament hill because parliament approved the program back then?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2018, 07:30:06 pm »
Oh? It's not conservatives running around demanding the names of presidents and prime ministers be stripped from buildings and trying to tear down their statues. You call that "recognizing the good with the bad"? I call it ignorant, fanatical vandalism and stupidity.

Well of course you would, you're a conservative after all so you wish to keep transgressions of your peers under the rug.

Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2018, 07:34:27 pm »
And? So what? How does he feel unsafe in a pub named after a guy he didn't even know had anything to do with the program until someone told him? Would he feel unsafe on parliament hill because parliament approved the program back then?

Perhaps if you would have been beaten or buggered in a residential school you might feel hesitatant to support an establishment advertising the name of the man who in large part contributed to your abuse.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2018, 07:35:29 pm »
Well of course you would, you're a conservative after all so you wish to keep transgressions of your peers under the rug.

Would you like to be judged solely on one crappy thing you had done during your life? I sure wouldn't.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2018, 07:56:18 pm »
Would you like to be judged solely on one crappy thing you had done during your life? I sure wouldn't.

If you read through the article you find that they haven't done away with discussing John A at this pub, and his contributions to Canada, they just scraped his name off it because of his racist actions. As I have pointed out numerous times here, I just don't think that people should get their **** in a knot because someone pointed a finger at what is historically known, and I wouldn't skim over residential schools as "one crappy thing". During his time in office I can't believe he was ignorant of the multitude of crappy things that went on in his schools. 

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2018, 08:40:16 pm »
If you read through the article you find that they haven't done away with discussing John A at this pub, and his contributions to Canada, they just scraped his name off it because of his racist actions. As I have pointed out numerous times here, I just don't think that people should get their **** in a knot because someone pointed a finger at what is historically known, and I wouldn't skim over residential schools as "one crappy thing". During his time in office I can't believe he was ignorant of the multitude of crappy things that went on in his schools.

Well, I think it is good that the discussion is continuing and the owner has every right to change the name of the place. However, there are very few famous people who have a blemishless  record during their lives. Lyndon Johnson was responsible for more social and civil rights legislation than probably any other president but his legacy will always be remembered as Viet Nam. As the saying goes, if you have never screwed up, it is probably because you don't do anything. Macdonald's racism wasn't out of the ordinary in his time so how should he be judged, because according to the standards of his day, he actually didn't screw up.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2018, 08:53:04 pm »
Well, I think it is good that the discussion is continuing and the owner has every right to change the name of the place. However, there are very few famous people who have a blemishless  record during their lives. Lyndon Johnson was responsible for more social and civil rights legislation than probably any other president but his legacy will always be remembered as Viet Nam. As the saying goes, if you have never screwed up, it is probably because you don't do anything. Macdonald's racism wasn't out of the ordinary in his time so how should he be judged, because according to the standards of his day, he actually didn't screw up.
s

All I say is let people make their own judgements based on the facts, all the facts. I think if we wish to overcome racism, we must first concede that we have, generally speaking exercised racism for some time.

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2018, 08:59:24 pm »
s

All I say is let people make their own judgements based on the facts, all the facts. I think if we wish to overcome racism, we must first concede that we have, generally speaking exercised racism for some time.

Of course but it is unlikely we will ever get rid of it and if we do, people will find other reasons to discriminate. Last week there was news article about five illegal ride sharing companies in Richmond BC that will not pick up non Chinese customers, so I am not going to feel guilty about racism that occurred 50 years before I was born or judge it by today's standards.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC