Author Topic: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name  (Read 4490 times)

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Offline eyeball

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #225 on: June 03, 2021, 10:39:21 am »
Should present day Romans be apologizing for the slavery and brutality of the Roman Empire. Where do you draw a line?
For living people I'd say certainly before the point where living memory intersects with history - not as far back as the Roman Empire but close enough to be able to see intergenerational effects of colonialist brutality.  I would describe living memory as being something that encompasses second hand memories carried by living relatives and families of deceased family members, great-grandparents to great-grandchildren for example.

But then there are the memories of our deepest most important institutions such as religion and government. These have a life of their own and like corporations should be considered responsible persons in a legal sense. Responsible institutions should be held as accountable as anyone else.  If they date back as far as the Roman Empire then I guess that's where you draw the line.

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #226 on: June 03, 2021, 10:58:51 am »
If they don't like the statues, then this seems like a cheap & easy step right ?

Graham posted about having a completely honest discussion on these topics, tied to spending real money to actually fix problems.

You in ?

Of course but don't expect anything to be cheap and easy. Cheap and easy is exactly what it means, next to nothing.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #227 on: June 03, 2021, 11:02:12 am »
It’s our country. Show me a country that wasn’t taken from others at some point. It’s also a country where discussions like this can take place and steps taken to address issues like these.
One day there will be a Global Truth and Reconciliation Commission to acknowledge and settle the historical injustices underlaying problems that persist to this day. Canada is one of a very few countries taking humanity's first painful steps down that path.  I'd really like to see 1st Nations people one day take a leading role in shaping and representing Canada's foreign policy on the global stage.  They'll probably have the most experience at how navigate the complicated course towards reconciliation.

The biggest obstacle and greatest threat to this is the rise of authoritarianism. In fact I expect the fear of reconciliation will only increase the respectability that many have been afforded the last couple of decades. We live in incredibly dangerous delicately balanced times with a lot hinging on the sort of challenges to our humanity that Canada is faced with.  I suspect the world will be watching with increased focus as each new mass grave is uncovered in Canada.

It's sometimes said the world needs more of Canada but what exactly?

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #228 on: June 03, 2021, 11:15:51 am »
Should present day Romans be apologizing for the slavery and brutality of the Roman Empire. Where do you draw a line?

The last residential school closed in 1996 so the comparison with literal ancient history is fatuous.

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #229 on: June 03, 2021, 11:58:22 am »
One day there will be a Global Truth and Reconciliation Commission to acknowledge and settle the historical injustices underlaying problems that persist to this day. Canada is one of a very few countries taking humanity's first painful steps down that path.  I'd really like to see 1st Nations people one day take a leading role in shaping and representing Canada's foreign policy on the global stage.  They'll probably have the most experience at how navigate the complicated course towards reconciliation.

The biggest obstacle and greatest threat to this is the rise of authoritarianism. In fact I expect the fear of reconciliation will only increase the respectability that many have been afforded the last couple of decades. We live in incredibly dangerous delicately balanced times with a lot hinging on the sort of challenges to our humanity that Canada is faced with.  I suspect the world will be watching with increased focus as each new mass grave is uncovered in Canada.

It's sometimes said the world needs more of Canada but what exactly?

Exactly, so why are we beating ourselves up so much? We have an obligation to try and make it right but I feel no personal guilt over this.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #230 on: June 03, 2021, 02:41:28 pm »
Exactly, so why are we beating ourselves up so much? We have an obligation to try and make it right but I feel no personal guilt over this.

And no one is asking you to feel personal guilt over this.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #231 on: June 03, 2021, 03:04:07 pm »
And no one is asking you to feel personal guilt over this.

Then what are you asking? What does it mean? Anything or are we just trying to make ourselves feel better.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #232 on: June 03, 2021, 05:18:16 pm »
Then what are you asking? What does it mean? Anything or are we just trying to make ourselves feel better.

Well, for starters, the Catholic Church should pay reparations. All residential school sites should be investigated for more unrecorded fatalities and an investigation launched. The approximately 5,000 abusers who have been identified should be investigated and face criminal charges if appropriate. The government should step up its efforts to implement the calls to action from the TRC. They can start dialogue about the hundreds or thousands of  statues, schools roads, hockey rinks named after various historical monsters. Those are just a few things that they can do before they get around to "trying to make wilber feel personally responsible for the actions of the state."

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Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #233 on: June 03, 2021, 06:12:28 pm »
Well, for starters, the Catholic Church should pay reparations. All residential school sites should be investigated for more unrecorded fatalities and an investigation launched. The approximately 5,000 abusers who have been identified should be investigated and face criminal charges if appropriate. The government should step up its efforts to implement the calls to action from the TRC. They can start dialogue about the hundreds or thousands of  statues, schools roads, hockey rinks named after various historical monsters. Those are just a few things that they can do before they get around to "trying to make wilber feel personally responsible for the actions of the state."

I wouldn’t quarrel with a lot of that, in fact they should have been happening before any apologies. They just strike me as a feel good exercise.

As far as historical monsters go, remember that it is the living who write history and the living who rewrite
it.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #234 on: June 04, 2021, 06:44:15 am »
Those who cherry pick the negative and ignore the positive are just as bad as those who do the opposite.
Cherry picking the negative, you say?

So your ancestors are buried in mass, unmarked graves. They tried to beat the Indian out of the child in residential schools. Yet, you have to walk by a statue of the guy who orchestrated the residential school system on your way to work every single day. A disgusting and vile reminder of the horrors perpetrated against your family, your people.

But hey, let's leave the statues up and the bars named after the guy because he wasn't ALL bad. That argument is absolutely preposterous.

We need to start atoning for our whitewashed history and the genocide of indigenous peoples. That only partially means relegating the people who organized a system of torture and abuse against them to history books, instead of public monuments.

Imagine having statues of wealthy slave owners in public spaces frequented by people of colour and whining about the statue being taken down because "that slaver gave the slaves food, clothing, and shelter! That slave owner also built schools!" This is what you sound like right now.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #235 on: June 04, 2021, 07:39:54 am »
Cherry picking the negative, you say?

So your ancestors are buried in mass, unmarked graves. They tried to beat the Indian out of the child in residential schools. Yet, you have to walk by a statue of the guy who orchestrated the residential school system on your way to work every single day. A disgusting and vile reminder of the horrors perpetrated against your family, your people.

But hey, let's leave the statues up and the bars named after the guy because he wasn't ALL bad. That argument is absolutely preposterous.

We need to start atoning for our whitewashed history and the genocide of indigenous peoples. That only partially means relegating the people who organized a system of torture and abuse against them to history books, instead of public monuments.

Imagine having statues of wealthy slave owners in public spaces frequented by people of colour and whining about the statue being taken down because "that slaver gave the slaves food, clothing, and shelter! That slave owner also built schools!" This is what you sound like right now.

Most of that happened after he was long dead. Concentrate too much rage on one person and others end up getting a free pass. On the other hand, my province would be part of the US and Canada wouldn’t have a west coast but for that same person.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #236 on: June 04, 2021, 08:04:41 am »
Concentrate too much rage on one person and others end up getting a free pass.
That's not at all what's happening. People are pointing out that public monuments that glorify the architects of genocide are not a good look. You're the one who's suggesting we give it a free pass because "hey, he also did good things! Like for example crushing the indigenous in my area of the country to make us a province."

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #237 on: June 04, 2021, 08:43:12 am »
That's not at all what's happening. People are pointing out that public monuments that glorify the architects of genocide are not a good look. You're the one who's suggesting we give it a free pass because "hey, he also did good things! Like for example crushing the indigenous in my area of the country to make us a province."

Really? If you look at waldo’s graph, the number of schools and residences increased more under Laurier than they did under JAM. The number of schools and residences peaked 70 years after he was dead.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #238 on: June 04, 2021, 10:02:46 am »
Really? If you look at waldo’s graph, the number of schools and residences increased more under Laurier than they did under JAM. The number of schools and residences peaked 70 years after he was dead.
And no one is letting Laurier off the hook. There's been calls to change his name too. You can see here from a letter to the editor in Waterloo 5 years ago that people were discussing it: https://www.waterloochronicle.ca/opinion-story/6354132-letter-to-the-editor-wilfrid-laurier-university-should-change-its-name/

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #239 on: June 04, 2021, 02:44:25 pm »
We need to start atoning for our whitewashed history and the genocide of indigenous peoples. That only partially means relegating the people who organized a system of torture and abuse against them to history books, instead of public monuments.

I think canceling John A causes cognitive dissonance.  We were all raised to believe he was great while wrapping the flag around him and ourselves.  Now we realize he did terrible stuff.  So he's part great, part terrible, and we don't know what to think.  At least that's how I feel.  It's kind of how I feel about Bill Cosby.  It's weird to want to boo and cheer someone at the same time.
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