Author Topic: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name  (Read 4471 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #210 on: June 02, 2021, 05:06:43 pm »
Those who cherry pick the negative and ignore the positive are just as bad as those who do the opposite.

Exactly.  The truth is beyond anyone's particular narrative, it encompasses all facts and all narratives.  Sadly many people are only looking to push their chosen narrative rather than the truth.  We see that more and more in our own media.

Macdonald was an imperfect character and a man of his times.  Very likely a racist, sexist, homophobe and whatever else a typical upper class white man was in the latter half of the 1800's.  In fact i'm sure if most of us met him we'd think he was a giant a-hole, the same as many of his contemporaries.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #211 on: June 02, 2021, 05:52:10 pm »
Yes, he said that if he could save the Union and not free a single slave he would do it. He didn’t like slavery but getting rid of it was not a the top of his priorities.

Our religions and our culture including our governments have known for centuries now that doing unto other's as we'd have them do unto us is how we're supposed to behave. There's been no excuse for not having done so.

Quote
We continually judge the past according to our existing morality.
We continually apologize for past morality to avoid ever having to take responsibility for it in the present. I think when you say "we" you're perhaps instinctively referring to a function of our most important institutions, religion and government - a function, evading accountability, that is so deep its part of their DNA and our culture.  It's what we mean when we use the word systemic to describe how it functions and how systemicism persists over time.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 05:59:05 pm by eyeball »

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #212 on: June 02, 2021, 06:23:54 pm »
Exactly.  The truth is beyond anyone's particular narrative, it encompasses all facts and all narratives.  Sadly many people are only looking to push their chosen narrative rather than the truth.  We see that more and more in our own media.

Macdonald was an imperfect character and a man of his times.  Very likely a racist, sexist, homophobe and whatever else a typical upper class white man was in the latter half of the 1800's.  In fact i'm sure if most of us met him we'd think he was a giant a-hole, the same as many of his contemporaries.

Don't forget he was also a crook.

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #213 on: June 02, 2021, 07:42:27 pm »
Our religions and our culture including our governments have known for centuries now that doing unto other's as we'd have them do unto us is how we're supposed to behave. There's been no excuse for not having done so.
We continually apologize for past morality to avoid ever having to take responsibility for it in the present. I think when you say "we" you're perhaps instinctively referring to a function of our most important institutions, religion and government - a function, evading accountability, that is so deep its part of their DNA and our culture.  It's what we mean when we use the word systemic to describe how it functions and how systemicism persists over time.

Should present day Romans be apologizing for the slavery and brutality of the Roman Empire. Where do you draw a line?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #214 on: June 02, 2021, 07:42:59 pm »
Should present day Romans be apologizing for the slavery and brutality of the Roman Empire. Where do you draw a line?

Where do you ?

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #215 on: June 02, 2021, 07:49:02 pm »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #216 on: June 02, 2021, 08:33:01 pm »
I asked first.

I am personally not offended that our past leaders have been found to be bad people, as much as I am that our current leaders have not yet been found to be.

I still find such exercises to be a little too much easier than fixing actual problems.  But people have the right to demonize people, and they picked a guy who has a pretty compelling demon card.


Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #217 on: June 02, 2021, 09:03:05 pm »
I am personally not offended that our past leaders have been found to be bad people, as much as I am that our current leaders have not yet been found to be.

I still find such exercises to be a little too much easier than fixing actual problems.  But people have the right to demonize people, and they picked a guy who has a pretty compelling demon card.

He was also a father of Confederation who almost single handedly brought the west into Confederation. My province wouldn't be part of Canada if JAM hadn't pushed the railway through.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #218 on: June 02, 2021, 09:09:46 pm »
He was also a father of Confederation who almost single handedly brought the west into Confederation. My province wouldn't be part of Canada if JAM hadn't pushed the railway through.

Ok.  Are you saying your opinion out loud to convince yourself of something, or trying to convince me of something ?  If #2 then what ?

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #219 on: June 02, 2021, 09:20:06 pm »
Ok.  Are you saying your opinion out loud to convince yourself of something, or trying to convince me of something ?  If #2 then what ?
I'm not trying to convince myself of anything, just looking at the man and how his actions affected the country on the whole. JAM may have been a complete A hole but the country as we know it wouldn't exist but for him.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #220 on: June 02, 2021, 09:25:55 pm »
I'm not trying to convince myself of anything, just looking at the man and how his actions affected the country on the whole. JAM may have been a complete A hole but the country as we know it wouldn't exist but for him.

But, it’s just a country….   Taken from others without their permission and their children molested and murdered with the country’s sanction.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #221 on: June 03, 2021, 05:07:17 am »
I'm not trying to convince myself of anything, just looking at the man and how his actions affected the country on the whole. JAM may have been a complete A hole but the country as we know it wouldn't exist but for him.

Ok.

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #222 on: June 03, 2021, 07:52:35 am »
But, it’s just a country….   Taken from others without their permission and their children molested and murdered with the country’s sanction.

It’s our country. Show me a country that wasn’t taken from others at some point. It’s also a country where discussions like this can take place and steps taken to address issues like these.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline wilber

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #223 on: June 03, 2021, 09:40:54 am »
Different FN were often at war and displacing each other from different parts of the continent. The Aztec, Inca and Mayan empires existed before Europeans arrived. They didn’t become empires without conquering other peoples.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Pub named after Sir John A changes its name
« Reply #224 on: June 03, 2021, 10:19:06 am »
It’s our country. Show me a country that wasn’t taken from others at some point. It’s also a country where discussions like this can take place and steps taken to address issues like these.

If they don't like the statues, then this seems like a cheap & easy step right ?

Graham posted about having a completely honest discussion on these topics, tied to spending real money to actually fix problems.

You in ?