« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 18 19 [20]

Author Topic: Poverty in Canada  (Read 3905 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #285 on: March 13, 2019, 08:42:29 am »
Quote from: MH on March 12, 2019, 08:21:06 pm
So... they need access to a treatment centre first ?  Doesn't everybody have access to treatment ?  Do you mean don't give them housing because they will spend money on drugs ?
Ah no. This is a current problem. Not everyone who wants treatment can get it. The political/media focus has been on harm prevention.
Logged

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #286 on: March 13, 2019, 08:46:56 am »
Quote from: cybercoma on March 13, 2019, 07:58:21 am
Meanwhile, study after study shows that social aid does not make people lazier.
I was not talking about social aid in general which can be helpful when the incentives are set up properly. I was talking about housing and the endless clamour for "affordable housing". The fact is demand for government subsidized housing always exceeds availability because the demand will rise to consume any supply *unless* that supply is made unattractive to people who have a choice. Group housing for the mental ill is one way to limit the demand.
Logged
Disagree Disagree x 2 View List

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #287 on: March 13, 2019, 11:26:40 am »
Quote from: Poonlight Graham on March 13, 2019, 08:28:13 am
For homeless i'd support free group housing, not free regular housing.
In a high-income nation, why is it not a goal in the interest of the public good, to make sure everyone has food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare, i.e., the basic necessities?

Remember back in the 1980s how the promise of automation was a life of leisure, all of our necessities provided by the productivity of machines?

Why is that suddenly not possible? Why does industry advance the interests of a small fraction of people instead of the greater public good?
Logged
Love Love x 1 View List

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #288 on: March 13, 2019, 11:30:15 am »
Quote from: TimG on March 13, 2019, 08:46:56 am
I was not talking about social aid in general which can be helpful when the incentives are set up properly.
So giving people rent money won't make them lazy, but providing them with housing instead will?

You care to suss out those mechanisms? Remember, you're the one who invoked demand and laziness. If giving people cash transfers doesn't make them lazy, giving them a place to live sure as hell won't, unless you have some rational mechanism that explains how one leads to laziness and the other doesn't.
Logged
Agree Agree x 1 Disagree Disagree x 1 View List

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10257
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #289 on: March 13, 2019, 05:36:02 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on March 13, 2019, 11:26:40 am
In a high-income nation, why is it not a goal in the interest of the public good, to make sure everyone has food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare, i.e., the basic necessities?

Why are you asking me this?  I think this is the goal, and almost everyone has access to this.  There's a tough balance because there's also freeloaders.  If I could get free food, housing, and all the necessities etc and was capable of working, why would I bother to work?

Giving homeless people a home and nothing else is not a good solution, they need support, which is why I said group homes for them may be better, since they'd have access to much more support with in-house professionals.  When they can show they're ready and capable of living on their own, then give them their own home.

Quote
Remember back in the 1980s how the promise of automation was a life of leisure, all of our necessities provided by the productivity of machines?

Didn't they say that when the industrial revolution started too?  If we were satisfied with the standard of living people had in 1905 i'm sure it would be possible for many.

Quote
Why is that suddenly not possible? Why does industry advance the interests of a small fraction of people instead of the greater public good?

Industry is good for virtually everyone, just some people reap much more of the benefits.  These people usually deserve more of the pie than the average worker, but how much more is debatable.  It seems out of whack. 
Logged
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #290 on: March 13, 2019, 05:47:59 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on March 13, 2019, 11:30:15 am
So giving people rent money won't make them lazy, but providing them with housing instead will?
You have a bad habit of not reading the arguments I actually make and instead respond to some bizarre fantasy argument which you find easier to refute. What I said was: if the government provides free housing the demand will increase to the point where supply outstrips demand. The net result is there will still be homeless no matter how much free housing the government offers. I also added a caveat: this effect could be mitigated if the government provided housing was undesirable in way (e.g. group homes for mentally ill).

No where did I say it government programs would make people lazy. In fact, I met some pretty hardworking people who spend a lot of time figuring out how to get free stuff from government. My point is the proposed solution (free housing) can't possibly fix the the stated problem (homelessness) because of the way demand responds to supply. None of your responses address this point.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 06:10:02 pm by TimG »
Logged

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #291 on: March 13, 2019, 05:54:51 pm »
Quote from: TimG on March 13, 2019, 05:47:59 pm
I met some pretty hardworking people who spend a lot of time figuring out how to get free stuff from government.

Agreed, however most of them are not homeless. Those trying to get free stuff from the government tend to be very rich.
Logged
Agree Agree x 1 Winner Winner x 1 Love Love x 1 View List

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #292 on: March 13, 2019, 06:13:19 pm »
Quote from: ?Impact on March 13, 2019, 05:54:51 pm
Agreed, however most of them are not homeless. Those trying to get free stuff from the government tend to be very rich.
The issue is not the currently homeless but the non-homeless who would jump at the opportunity to get free housing if it was offered.
Logged
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10257
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #293 on: March 13, 2019, 07:49:28 pm »
Quote from: ?Impact on March 13, 2019, 05:54:51 pm
Agreed, however most of them are not homeless. Those trying to get free stuff from the government tend to be very rich.

There's certainly enough of the poor and rich trying to get free stuff.
Logged
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Poverty in Canada
« Reply #294 on: March 13, 2019, 11:04:24 pm »
Japan has an excellent system of subsidized housing yet they still have homeless. It bizarre how so many people here want to cling to nonsensical notions that it is possible for the government to give away something without there being any consequences. Lower price on a important commodity, demand will increase to outstrip supply. Always.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2015/04/04/how-tos/japans-public-housing-system-shelf-life/#.XInRQihKguU

Quote
However, that has never really been the case, and not just because the employment environment has become more competitive in recent decades. It is human nature to want to remain in a place you call “home,” especially if it is inexpensive and it happens to be located in the center of one of the most vibrant cities in the world. Some local governments limit residents to 10 years’ maximum in a public housing unit, but it’s difficult to kick someone out of a residence in Japan, even when the tenant has violated the rules of his contract.

Quote
Naturally, it’s not easy getting into such a system. All public housing programs allocate by a lottery that privileges certain types of applicants depending on their circumstances. Welfare recipients do have an advantage, but it should be noted that applicants’ assets are not screened, only their incomes.

Quote
Even if you “win” the lottery, it doesn’t mean you can move in right away. In many cases, local governments approve a certain number of applications based on how many vacancies they project, and winners usually have to wait between five months and a year before a unit is empty.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 11:06:27 pm by TimG »
Logged
Disagree Disagree x 1 View List
Pages: 1 ... 18 19 [20]
« previous next »