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Author Topic: Polygamy Culture  (Read 1645 times)

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guest4

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2017, 08:43:00 am »
Quote from: BC_cheque on July 26, 2017, 01:45:29 am
It's easy for you to say brainwashing doesn't hinder the consenting adult process and isn't really 'harmful'.  You're not wife number three to anyone and you can leave the house without covering your face and have a life and be mobile and socialize.
If the amendments you favor came into existence, what is your solution for those women who cannot leave the house at all because they cannot be seen in public in a niqab?    To me, this still looks like a matter of out-of-sight-out-of-mind rather than supporting female emancipation.   It is to me, akin to a law that tells women to stay home if they have visible injuries from their partner's violence.
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Offline JMT

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 09:06:55 am »
Quote from: BC_cheque on July 26, 2017, 01:45:29 am
It's easy for you to say brainwashing doesn't hinder the consenting adult process and isn't really 'harmful'.  You're not wife number three to anyone and you can leave the house without covering your face and have a life and be mobile and socialize.

The charter was written in the early 80's.  The Canada of those days is very different than the Canada of today.  We didn't have the level of diversity we do now.  We're not dealing with protestant vs. catholic here, but beliefs that are abhorrent to most Canadians. 

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely wrong.  The 'abhorrent' things are already illegal.  It's not up to you to decide for other people if they are or are not doing things of their own volition unless you can prove some kind of violation.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2017, 09:36:20 am »
Quote from: dia on July 26, 2017, 08:43:00 am
If the amendments you favor came into existence, what is your solution for those women who cannot leave the house at all because they cannot be seen in public in a niqab?

And why couldn't those women leave the house at all?

Quote from: dia on July 26, 2017, 08:43:00 am
   To me, this still looks like a matter of out-of-sight-out-of-mind rather than supporting female emancipation.   It is to me, akin to a law that tells women to stay home if they have visible injuries from their partner's violence.

In your analogy a niqab is an injury, which is fine with me...  but unlike injuries inflicted by a violent partner, a niqab is self-inflicted. If wearing a niqab is like an injury, then stop injuring yourself.

I think emancipation would entail getting rid of restrictive traditions, not accommodating restrictive traditions.

Still, I think a woman should be allowed to wear a bag over her head if she wishes.  Likewise a Hooters uniform or a chicken suit or any other degrading clothing. She should be allowed to wear her niqab, except under certain circumstances. The idea that people should be allowed to wear their niqab in their ID photo is moronic. The idea that people should be allowed to wear their miqab while testifying in court is unacceptable.  The idea that people shouldn't have to show their faces to police officers and other law enforcement agents is ridiculous.  But aside from that, a woman should be allowed to wear her niqab if she wishes.

And the rest of us should feel free to point out that wearing a bag on your head is stupid.

The current efforts to rebrand the niqab as a feminist symbol are retarded. And people who contend that it's Islamophobic to denounce niqabs and burqas and other symbols of female repression can go **** themselves.

 -k
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Offline msj

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2017, 09:36:44 am »
Quote from: BC_cheque on July 26, 2017, 01:45:29 am
It's easy for you to say brainwashing doesn't hinder the consenting adult process and isn't really 'harmful'.  You're not wife number three to anyone and you can leave the house without covering your face and have a life and be mobile and socialize.

The charter was written in the early 80's.  The Canada of those days is very different than the Canada of today.  We didn't have the level of diversity we do now.  We're not dealing with protestant vs. catholic here, but beliefs that are abhorrent to most Canadians. 

It's like Americans who cling to the second amendment for their right to carry an AK-47 without putting in context the timeframe of when it was written.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I think it's time to dust off the charter and make a few amendments.


Rights are rights so when the Charter was written is irrelevant.

It is a living document that is open enough to be interpreted.

As for being the third wife: again, where is the harm?

Put up the evidence and, no, saying that you don't like it because you don't like their stupid religious beliefs is not sufficient evidence of harm.

We have laws for assault, sexual assault, etc etc so we do not need the state to impose another law: the "the state doesn't agree with your religion so consenting adults who may or may not be brainwashed can't do this or that,  just trust us because we are the state and know better than you" law should be its title.

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2017, 12:27:48 pm »
Quote from: MH on July 25, 2017, 12:55:50 pm
Can't we separate the issue of child marriage from that of polygamy ?
Here's the problem. When children grow up in a polygamist cult and they're groomed to be married off to some elderly cult leader when they turn 18, well....technically it's not child marriage. But think about it.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2017, 12:28:17 pm »
Quote from: msj on July 26, 2017, 09:36:44 am

Rights are rights so when the Charter was written is irrelevant.

It is a living document that is open enough to be interpreted.

As for being the third wife: again, where is the harm?

Put up the evidence and, no, saying that you don't like it because you don't like their stupid religious beliefs is not sufficient evidence of harm.

We have laws for assault, sexual assault, etc etc so we do not need the state to impose another law: the "the state doesn't agree with your religion so consenting adults who may or may not be brainwashed can't do this or that,  just trust us because we are the state and know better than you" law should be its title.

When a partnership is absolved, we have egalitarian rules that protect both parties regardless of gender with things like division of assets and care for the children.  That's the harmful factor you are not considering for the 3rd or 15th wife.  She does not have the same rights as the man in the relationship.

Frankly, I have nothing against polyamorous relationships or alternative lifestyles, but you remove the indoctrination factor as though it's has such little bearing.  That's incorrect. 

When a woman gets into a relationship where she is not granted equal status in the partnership just because of her gender, it makes a difference whether she openly she chose the lifestyle or if she was told since infancy that she will burn in hell if she doesn't.

You keep dismissing that aspect as though it's irrelevant.  Freedom of religion already has limits and for good reason.  Just because someone's belief system tells them it's ok to do something doesn't mean we need to accept it and 'respect it'.

Hogwash.



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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2017, 12:30:34 pm »
Quote from: kimmy on July 25, 2017, 10:47:10 pm
I think that kicking polygamy in the groin as a legitimate religious (ie, Charter-protected) lifestyle is different from imposing a government ban on adultery, swinging, open marriages, or any other recreational sexual activities that consenting adults might undertake.

 -k
This I agree with.  And similarly there's a very big difference between a woman who's husband won't allow her to leave the house unless she puts on her niqab and a woman who chooses to wear as a sign of her faith. But somehow people are unable to distinguish between these things.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 12:34:44 pm by cybercoma »
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2017, 12:31:15 pm »
Quote from: jmt18325 on July 26, 2017, 09:06:55 am
I'm sorry, but you're absolutely wrong.  The 'abhorrent' things are already illegal.  It's not up to you to decide for other people if they are or are not doing things of their own volition unless you can prove some kind of violation.

Maybe spend a week walking around in a burqa, see what's it's like to start a conversation with the person next to you, try going for a job interview, heck, go out for a bowl of pho...

Then come back and tell me it's not abhorrent to brainwash a woman into thinking this is good for her.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2017, 12:35:50 pm »
Quote from: dia on July 26, 2017, 08:43:00 am
If the amendments you favor came into existence, what is your solution for those women who cannot leave the house at all because they cannot be seen in public in a niqab?    To me, this still looks like a matter of out-of-sight-out-of-mind rather than supporting female emancipation.   It is to me, akin to a law that tells women to stay home if they have visible injuries from their partner's violence.

It will be a difficult adjustment, but I think in the long run it's more important that like France, Canada takes a stance that we will not 'respect' the belief women should not be seen.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2017, 12:56:22 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on July 26, 2017, 12:27:48 pm
Here's the problem. When children grow up in a polygamist cult and they're groomed to be married off to some elderly cult leader when they turn 18, well....technically it's not child marriage. But think about it.

Brainwashing is pretty hard to legislate against though.  Most religion would be banned under such an edict, I expect. 

As would my cult - BurningMan.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2017, 02:10:56 pm »
For female members of these cults, this is not optional. They are groomed for it from when they were born. But then so was the Hitler Youth. No harm there.
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guest4

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2017, 03:27:24 pm »
Quote from: kimmy on July 26, 2017, 09:36:20 am
And why couldn't those women leave the house at all?
Leaving aside whether a woman is forced to wear a niqab or chooses it, if wearing it in public were illegal, she would be effectively banned from malls, coffee shops, sporting events, schools, any public place. 

Quote
In your analogy a niqab is an injury, which is fine with me...  but unlike injuries inflicted by a violent partner, a niqab is self-inflicted. If wearing a niqab is like an injury, then stop injuring yourself.
In the case of women who are forced to wear them through family pressure or outright violence, how is it any different?   

Quote
I think emancipation would entail getting rid of restrictive traditions, not accommodating restrictive traditions.
I don't think it's possible to get rid of restrictive traditions for someone else.  They have to do it for themselves. 

Quote
Still, I think a woman should be allowed to wear a bag over her head if she wishes.  Likewise a Hooters uniform or a chicken suit or any other degrading clothing. She should be allowed to wear her niqab, except under certain circumstances. The idea that people should be allowed to wear their niqab in their ID photo is moronic. The idea that people should be allowed to wear their miqab while testifying in court is unacceptable.  The idea that people shouldn't have to show their faces to police officers and other law enforcement agents is ridiculous.  But aside from that, a woman should be allowed to wear her niqab if she wishes.
I believe the only truth in the above is that they are allowed to wear them in court.   In the other cases, the niqab is removed for photos and for identification by law enforcement; the accommodation is that it is done in private and in front of a woman. 

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And the rest of us should feel free to point out that wearing a bag on your head is stupid.
Sure, but it would probably be more effective to point out that wearing them is not a requirement of Islam.

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The current efforts to rebrand the niqab as a feminist symbol are retarded.
I notice that the more anti-Islamic rhetoric there is, the more women I see in hijabs and niqabs.  Could it be that the way women who are visually identifiable as Muslim are attacked is causing them to increase their solidarity through the wearing of these (to them, if not you) religious symbols?   Maybe a smarter course of action would be to ignore it and let them realize on their own that there is a better and more comfortable way to dress.





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guest4

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2017, 03:30:02 pm »
Quote from: BC_cheque on July 26, 2017, 12:35:50 pm
It will be a difficult adjustment, but I think in the long run it's more important that like France, Canada takes a stance that we will not 'respect' the belief women should not be seen.
Yeah and that will be easy if we impose a law that ensures they won't be seen. 
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Offline poochy

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2017, 03:44:53 pm »
This seems like a case of 'putting away Al Capone for racketeering because it was too hard to prove murder'.

These people are gross for what happens with the young girls, but i dont think polygamy should be illegal, then maybe the bad part of it in this case is an inevitable consequence of the polygamy.
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Offline Goddess

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2017, 04:17:04 pm »
Quote
In the case of women who are forced to wear them through family pressure or outright violence, how is it any different? 

If only there was some kind of Help Hotline she could call......or maybe just the police.

Look, I sympathize with all the women who are forced to wear them for whatever reason - cult brainwashing, family pressure, outright violence, the whole nine yards.....

Breaking free from that is super damn hard.  Believe me, I know.

But I agree with BC Cheque - accomodating and normalizing this stone age bullshit should not be an option.  And it certainly should not be the ONLY option.

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