Author Topic: Polygamy Culture  (Read 1036 times)

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2017, 12:16:04 pm »
It's not a particular case. It's the standard practice of the cult that these people were in. That "particular case" happens to be the leader of their cult. These men groom little girls to be their brides and often times are screwing around with them when they're underage. You were comparing grooming a woman to be your sex slave as the same thing as choosing religious attire as an expression of your faith. I don't see how they're comparable at all.

Again, I wasn't comparing it to this particular case, just like MH wasn't making jokes about wanting an underage wife when he said

"I couldn't see myself having more than one wife but I could be convinced to try it for a weekend or so..."

The OP linked to a particular event but the discussion that ensued has been about polygamy in general between consenting adults as well as about this particular case.

Clearly I wasn't talking about the case, but polygamy in general when I compared it to the niqab.  Just like MH was clearly talking about polygamy in general when he made his joke and you understood that and didn't call him out for 'wanting to **** children'. 

Hope that clarifies it for you.

Offline MH

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2017, 12:55:50 pm »
Can't we separate the issue of child marriage from that of polygamy ?

If adults want to enter into a 3-way marriage then why stop them ?

It seems like overkill to disallow the practice because of the actions of this one cult.  If we want to balance security concerns with freedom, there are other examples where we balance those concerns out. 

I have some examples but they play out on a larger scale, and maybe that's the issue.  I can't think of another one where a wider freedom is disallowed to protect a small number of people who may not be entering into an agreement willingly.

If you can't tell, I am not convinced of either side on this one. 

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2017, 01:15:24 pm »
Absolutely we can (and we were) separating child marriage and polygamy, that's why CC's post to me was very misdirected.

I think it's very apt to make a comparison of polygamy (in general) to the niqab because we allow one under 'freedom' of choice for the women but outlaw the other.  That makes no sense.

Obviously you think both should be allowed.  Good on ya.

I think it's more complicated than that but if anything, I'm arguing that we should have some consistency. 


Offline MH

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2017, 01:41:43 pm »
1) Obviously you think both should be allowed.  Good on ya.

2) I think it's more complicated than that but if anything, I'm arguing that we should have some consistency.
1) I'm undecided, as I said.  One bad cult, though, doesn't make a case for a sweeping law IMO.
2) We can only hope for a bit of consistency in such things.  But, yes.

Offline msj

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2017, 03:07:46 pm »
I largely agree with MH on this with the exception that I am decided.

Freedom, including the freedom of religion and from religion, in part of our Charter.

I think child marriage can be separated from shacking up with multiple consenting adults.

Sure, we may not like the religious sensibilities that lead to the shacking up - but too bad - freedom is about letting people do this.

Oh, and people should be allowed to wear burqas too. Once again: freedom. 

It is insulting, if not outright tyrannical, for the state to tell us "you can't wear that because men who follow your religion may be abusing you."

Prove real harm being conducted at the individual level and throw those people in jail.

Do not impose the prejudices of the majority upon minorities.
I've gotta have more cow bell! -Bruce Dickinson

Offline MH

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2017, 03:12:04 pm »
I guess I largely agree.

That said... even freedom of religion is a freedom that is subordinate to freedom of expression.  And anything that we can harmlessly do to reinforce the decline of religion, tacitly, is kind of ok with me.  Banning religion is not on, but 'reasonable accommodation' is temporal and so I'm kind of ok with this not being allowed either.

But I lean towards 'agree'.

Offline wilber

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2017, 05:49:09 pm »
It's one thing for multiple consenting adults to shack up together but when you make it a legal contract how do you divide assets in the event of two of them divorcing? Should be lots of money in it for lawyers.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2017, 06:33:50 pm »
My parents left their families and my dad had to start a whole new career where we knew nobody and the ONLY reason they did it was because they wanted me to grow up in a society that values me as much as it does my brother.  I am so grateful to them for it.

I am careful what I say post-9/11 because criticism of repressive societies often is espoused by the 'bomb them and let Allah sort them out' crowd, but I am a fierce opponent of coddling beliefs that treat women as second class citizens.

I wrote plenty critiques about Abrahamic religions throughout my university years and I went head to head with many Muslim 'feminists' and to my dying day I will never accept polygamy or niqabs or anything else that treats women differently than it treats men.

When women can have multiple husbands, we can consider polygamy.  When men have to cover their entire faces, then they can ask women to do it. 

Otherwise to hell with these beliefs.   Dawkins is so right, we don't need to 'respect' what is essentially BS and has no place in a civilized egalitarian society.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 06:42:37 pm by BC_cheque »
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2017, 08:36:19 pm »
I just don't see how you equate wearing a veil to **** children.

This is an article on the leader of their cult:

"Six years after Warren Jeffs was first arrested and later sentenced to life in prison for sexually assaulting children, it's almost as though the fundamentalist leader, whom the faithful call their "prophet," never left Colorado City.

Jeffs' followers, who live in the desert town nestled on the border between Arizona and Utah, are a radical splinter group of the mainstream Mormon church who call themselves the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/jailed-polygamist-leader-warren-jeffs-issues-hundreds-orders/story?id=17770090

But sure....fashion choices are so clearly the same.

I think the only comparison is that both are impositions on women, by men, for the purpose of oppressing them, excused by religion. 

Obviously, other than that, they are completely different.  The poor veil wearers have their own child molesters to worry about. (I just can't swear...)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 08:34:51 am by bcsapper »
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline kimmy

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2017, 10:33:13 pm »
Let's get a number of things sorted out.

First off, while freedom of religion is promised in the Charter of Rights, no freedom is absolute.   And we have a history of prioritizing the safety of children above the freedom of religion. This has been established in repeated cases where religious nut-jobs asserted that their freedom of religion entitled them to reject modern medical care for their children. The courts have ruled against them time and time again. That was the ruling when Jehovah's Witnesses wanted to refuse blood transfusions on religious grounds. That was the ruling when the native girl's family wanted to reject modern medicine in favor of magic mumbo-jumbo.  There are a lot more examples. When freedom of religion comes into conflict with a child's right to life, liberty, and security of person, the child's right to life, liberty, and security of person wins out every single time.  I invite anybody to provide a counterexample, but I don't think there are any counterexamples.


Second:  unlike Islam or other major faiths where polygamy is *allowable* in some circumstances, Blackmore (and Warren Jeffs, and others from this retarded cult) assert that their faith *requires* that they take multiple wives.  If a Muslim or a mainstream Mormon went to court and said that a law against polygamy violates his religious freedom, the court could easily say no, because there is no obligation in his faith to take multiple wives.  Not so with Winston Blackmore, who believes that God *requires* him to have multiple wives.


I think there's a significant difference between allowing consenting adults to share partners, engage in adultery, and whatever other shenanigans consenting adults might get up to, versus allowing a religious cult to indoctrinate young girls with the belief that their uteruses are the property of some withered old creep. And unfortunately, BC prosecutors have spent decades trying to figure out how to make this difference stand up in court without a Charter of Rights challenge on the basis of Freedom of Religion, and the Polygamy charges were apparently the best option available.

Overall I look at this pretty much the same as I look at using Tax Evasion to put Al Capone in prison.  Ideally that wouldn't have been the way to put Al Capone in prison, but it's better than nothing.

Listen: the BC government has spent decades trying to figure out how to deal with Winston Blackmore. This is the best they could do. It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing.


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2017, 10:35:22 pm »
btw: is it inappropriate for me to hope that Winston Blackmore gets to have 24 different husbands in prison?

 -k
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Offline msj

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2017, 10:40:27 pm »
It is one thing for a religion to impose upon society its outrages beliefs.

It is another for society to impose, at the individual level, upon individuals for their stupid beliefs.

Freedom allows people to shack up and wear clothing for whatever reasons they fancy as long as no harm is occurring. 

The Muslim women who chooses (whether brainwashed or not) to wear a burqa has the freedom to wear it because the state has no business in choosing what individual citizens choose to wear (nor are the reasons for wearing it any of the state's business, for that matter).

Same with shacking up.

Again, prove harm of abuse under existing laws that are meant to protect citizens from real harm.

But leave people alone to choose their life whether you agree with it or not.

Otherwise, don't be surprised when those who want to take your freedom away "because it's good for you because you are being harmed/brainwashed" coming knocking on the door. 





I've gotta have more cow bell! -Bruce Dickinson

Offline msj

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2017, 10:41:44 pm »
To be clear, I do not support child marriage.

Very clearly have stated between consenting adults.
I've gotta have more cow bell! -Bruce Dickinson

Offline kimmy

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2017, 10:47:10 pm »
I think that kicking polygamy in the groin as a legitimate religious (ie, Charter-protected) lifestyle is different from imposing a government ban on adultery, swinging, open marriages, or any other recreational sexual activities that consenting adults might undertake.

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Polygamy Culture
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2017, 01:45:29 am »
It is one thing for a religion to impose upon society its outrages beliefs.

It is another for society to impose, at the individual level, upon individuals for their stupid beliefs.

Freedom allows people to shack up and wear clothing for whatever reasons they fancy as long as no harm is occurring. 

The Muslim women who chooses (whether brainwashed or not) to wear a burqa has the freedom to wear it because the state has no business in choosing what individual citizens choose to wear (nor are the reasons for wearing it any of the state's business, for that matter).

Same with shacking up.

Again, prove harm of abuse under existing laws that are meant to protect citizens from real harm.

But leave people alone to choose their life whether you agree with it or not.

Otherwise, don't be surprised when those who want to take your freedom away "because it's good for you because you are being harmed/brainwashed" coming knocking on the door.

It's easy for you to say brainwashing doesn't hinder the consenting adult process and isn't really 'harmful'.  You're not wife number three to anyone and you can leave the house without covering your face and have a life and be mobile and socialize.

The charter was written in the early 80's.  The Canada of those days is very different than the Canada of today.  We didn't have the level of diversity we do now.  We're not dealing with protestant vs. catholic here, but beliefs that are abhorrent to most Canadians. 

It's like Americans who cling to the second amendment for their right to carry an AK-47 without putting in context the timeframe of when it was written.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I think it's time to dust off the charter and make a few amendments.
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