Author Topic: People’s Party of Canada launched  (Read 922 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2018, 11:34:58 am »
Bullshit.  You don't care that open Marxists are respected in Left wing political parties and on college campuses but you'll desperately hunt down a case where someone associated with white supremacy or white nationalism once had a meeting with someone in a conservative party and hold that aloft triumphantly. No open fascist or nazi would be tolerated by any conservative party. You sure as **** can't say the same about Commies and Marxists and the Left.

Well, you seem to have undying faith in conservatives while Donald Trump, the conservative potus doesn't seem to mind cozying up to totalitarian dictators.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2018, 11:43:25 am »
Well, you seem to have undying faith in conservatives while Donald Trump, the conservative potus doesn't seem to mind cozying up to totalitarian dictators.

**** Donald Trump. Like many, I eagerly await his well-deserved prison sentence.
Trump has never espoused any conservative beliefs that I'm aware of. Not until he ran for office, where he suddenly started spouting the bullshit of a lifelong sales guy who never cared much for ethics, morals or honesty.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2018, 12:01:00 pm »
**** Donald Trump. Like many, I eagerly await his well-deserved prison sentence.
Trump has never espoused any conservative beliefs that I'm aware of. Not until he ran for office, where he suddenly started spouting the bullshit of a lifelong sales guy who never cared much for ethics, morals or honesty.

Trump is just a bit more demonstrative of the anti-intellectual, race baiting policies that have been the nature of the Conservative party for decades.

Offline wilber

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2018, 12:04:38 pm »
People who cite 100s of millions of deaths from Communism also fail to recognize the famine that hit the Soviet Union which was responsible for not only the deaths of political dissidents, but also the party loyalists at the time. Stalin was a killer, but this Neo-Nazi game of diminishing Hitler's atrocities by pretending that Stalin was even remotely as barbaric as fascists is utter crap.

No reasonable person would diminish Hitler's atrocities but Stalin was as barbaric, up to 15 million died in the Gulags. The difference was, Stalin's barbarism wasn't based on ideology and a twisted view of race, but on perceived threats to him personally and to his regime. If you were a victim of either, I doubt their differences in motive would mean much to you.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2018, 12:05:30 pm »
Trump is just a bit more demonstrative of the anti-intellectual, race baiting policies that have been the nature of the Conservative party for decades.

There hasn't even BEEN a conservative party for decades. And the Progressive Conservatives have shrunk from every aspect of race baiting. It was the Progressive Conservative who tripled immigration, mostly from non-white countries. Harper increased it too.

As for 'anti-intellectual', I haven't noted a lot of interest in intellectualism on the part of the leftist parties. Most of their leaders appear to be drones of no intellectual substance and little ability, and they promote the ideal of equal results regardless of merit or intelligence. Affirmative action is an anti-intellectual policy deeply embedded in the Left.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2018, 12:15:12 pm »
There hasn't even BEEN a conservative party for decades. And the Progressive Conservatives have shrunk from every aspect of race baiting. It was the Progressive Conservative who tripled immigration, mostly from non-white countries. Harper increased it too.

As for 'anti-intellectual', I haven't noted a lot of interest in intellectualism on the part of the leftist parties. Most of their leaders appear to be drones of no intellectual substance and little ability, and they promote the ideal of equal results regardless of merit or intelligence. Affirmative action is an anti-intellectual policy deeply embedded in the Left.

I was referring to the US hence my reference to TRUMP.

Offline the_squid

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2018, 01:02:05 pm »
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open Marxists are respected in Left wing political parties ...

Can you name any?

Offline TimG

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2018, 05:47:01 pm »
On the rare occasions when somebody who is genuinely anti-white opens their yap (like the Toronto BLM lady for example) they're rightly criticized for it.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/aug/2/ny-times-newest-editorial-board-member-doesnt-seem/

Now you can argue that Jeong is being criticized but the the critics are coming from one side of the partisan divide while the other side rationalizes and makes excuses for her hate mongering (the actions of the left on this file are not that different from Trump's 'mighty fine people marching in Carolina' comment).

The failure of the NYT to take an action that it would have demanded for any right wing public figure guilty of the same offense has turned what was a legitimate argument against hate into yet another partisan battle ground. It also illustrates why your claim that there is no double standard cannot be taken seriously.

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2018, 06:01:30 pm »
It's not a double-standard, and they're not equally horrible.  Even if democratic Marxism is a fantasy, people can believe in it.   As such it is far less odious than Fascism:

Ok well now you've defined the "far left" as "democratic marxism", which is a less extreme version of what's existed in reality but that's fine since that's what most westerner/university Marxists believe these days anyways.  But we can't compare that to fascism (fascism should be compared to 20th century communism, both are totalitarian), the less extreme unauthoritarian economic equivalent on the far right would be democratic lassez-faire capitalism.

The universities of the last 40+ years have been arguing Marxism vs Milton Friedman-esque neoliberal free market capitalism and everything in between.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline MH

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2018, 06:07:05 pm »
Nothing to see here folks. There's no Marxists. It's just fearmongering from the alt-right. Move along, please. We on the left are all wonderful people! Really!

I doubt you can produce anything that shows Marxism is on any ind of increase.

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Marxism is a respected doctrine throughout our university system, and you'll find few in the NDP dismissing its value. In the UK it's quite possible Labour could take power in the next election, and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn praised Karl Marx as a great thinker. There are many Marxists in his caucus. Communism is far from dead, because the Left still respects Communists and Marxists. That is why they are far more of a danger to democracy than Fascists.

You'll find few Conservatives dissing capitalism... even though it died at the same time Marxism did.  We have a liberal economy, dry your tears.  There is no Marxist threat in the universities, nor a fascist threat. 

Marx is praised as a great thinker because his ideas transformed the entire world.  Freud was too.  You can say that... it's ok.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2018, 06:10:12 pm »
Ok well now you've defined the "far left" as "democratic marxism", which is a less extreme version of what's existed in reality ...

I can find a whole pile of alt-right extremism pandered to (supported by) mainstream conservatives (including the US president)...   please point me to the violent Marxists and their liberal-left supporters.

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2018, 06:11:45 pm »
I think history shows that most of the deaths attributed to communism are not because of the economic beliefs themselves, but because they were implemented by totalitarian regimes that went to horrific extremes to enforce their policies and crush dissent.

That's very arguably not true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes#Debate_on_famines

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Over half of the 100 million deaths attributed to communism were due to famine, according to Soviet historian J. Arch Getty.[195] Stéphane Courtois argues that many communist regimes caused famines in their efforts to forcibly collectivize agriculture and systematically used it as a weapon by controlling the food supply and distributing food on a political basis. He states that "in the period after 1918, only Communist countries experienced such famines, which led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and in some cases millions, of people. And again in the 1980s, two African countries that claimed to be Marxist-Leninist, Ethiopia and Mozambique, were the only such countries to suffer these deadly famines."

Take a wretched bureaucratic debacle, like the Phoenix pay system disaster, equate those absent-minded failures to government-controlled food production and distribution, and you end up with the starvation of millions of people.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline ?Impact

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2018, 06:34:30 pm »
Yes, starvation of people is a massive problem. One that is amplified 10 fold under capitalism.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2018, 06:51:58 pm »
Can you name any?

How about the NDP's Socialist caucus. You think there might be a few there? Among their policy resolutions this year are nationalizing the auto industry, nationalizing the banks and insurance companies, nationalizing the telcoms, 'social ownership' of primary industries, and solidarity with Cuba and Venezuala.

http://ndpsocialists.ca/socialist-caucus-resolutions-2018-federal-ndp-convention/
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2018, 06:54:09 pm »
People who cite 100s of millions of deaths from Communism also fail to recognize the famine that hit the Soviet Union which was responsible for not only the deaths of political dissidents, but also the party loyalists at the time. Stalin was a killer, but this Neo-Nazi game of diminishing Hitler's atrocities by pretending that Stalin was even remotely as barbaric as fascists is utter crap.

I'm not diminishing Hitler's atrocities, but you're diminishing Stalin and Mao's etc. abysmal failures.  The famines that hit the USSR and China were greatly caused by the stupid government economic policies in food production and distribution.  They had dreams of rapid industrialization and oops! tens of millions dead.  One of the main if not THE main failure of the USSR that let to its collapse was the terribly inefficient and corrupt economic policies that stagnated the country since Khrushchev in the 60's:  https://www.history.com/topics/russia/history-of-the-soviet-union#section_8

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During the 1960s and 1970s, the Communist Party elite rapidly gained wealth and power while millions of average Soviet citizens faced starvation. The Soviet Union’s push to industrialize at any cost resulted in frequent shortages of food and consumer goods. Bread lines were common throughout the 1970s and 1980s. Soviet citizens often did not have access to basic needs, such as clothing or shoes.  The divide between the extreme wealth of the Politburo and the poverty of Soviet citizens created a backlash from younger people who refused to adopt Communist Party ideology as their parents had.

Would "democratic Marxism" work, without a centralized economy, but with co-ops or such instead?  I have no idea.  I used to hold a candle for it in my 20's, not anymore.  Everyone (including younger me) says "well that wasn't REAL communism  My version will work!".  Until I see somewhere in the real world where it works, keep me out of it.  Lenin had admirable dreams too but it all went to hell quickly.  Same with Mao, N. Korea, and dozens of other countries. We have hardly any reason to have faith in anyone with these big plans that only seem to work on paper.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb