Author Topic: People’s Party of Canada launched  (Read 922 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2018, 06:41:03 am »
Why do Marxists and communists not get pilloried the way the alt-right do? Because Marxists and communists are defined by economic beliefs, while the alt-right are defined by hate.

Also, Marxism is dead as an economic belief.  It's chief use today is to scaremonger right of centre folks by scotch taping identity politics and tax increases to it.

Offline MH

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2018, 06:43:56 am »
   The point is, far-right and far-left are filled with equally horrible ideas, but are treated with a double-standard in our society and in universities.

It's not a double-standard, and they're not equally horrible.  Even if democratic Marxism is a fantasy, people can believe in it.   As such it is far less odious than Fascism:

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often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2018, 07:24:02 am »
Could you point out what ideas specifically you have a problem with.

A planned economy, which is infinitely less efficient than markets, and susceptible to all the other problems of governments, like corruption an not responding to what citizens actually want.  The best way for people to get the products they need and want and for businesses to produce needed goods efficiently is to just let them make those decisions themselves without government or anyone else deciding for them.

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Capitalism brought us the slave trade, therefore we should ban and boot anyone preaching capitalist ideas according to your standard.

There's been slavery since the dawn of mankind.  It's not capitalism's invention, but liberalism stopped it.

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Even today, many millions die annually of malnutrition and related causes thanks to capitalists; estimates are about 14 million a year due to capitalism which is an order of magnitude higher than communism ever caused (based on the 100 million total estimate that CG has supplied above, and also mostly because of capitalist "economic beliefs").

Do you have a cite for above? Capitalism has lifted billions out of extreme poverty the last several decades, saving a ridiculous amount of lives never seen before in human history.  China's economy and standard of living has dramatically improved since introducing market reforms in the 1990's.  Most of the former Soviet states in Europe lag behind the rest of Europe.  Capitalism isn't perfect, and gov regulations try to temper some of that, but it's orders of magnitude superior than any other economic system ever invented.  A mixed system of capital markets and regulation with social safety nets has proven time and again to work better than anything.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 07:41:09 am by Coonlight Graham »
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Online ?Impact

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2018, 09:02:56 am »
A planned economy, which is infinitely less efficient than markets...

... corruption

That is an example of an opinion, not a fact.

Yes, capitalism is great at deciding if you want an iPhone or and Android, or even if there is a market for a cell phone. It however fails miserably at providing the basic necessities of life (food, shelter, and transportation when demanded by the capitalist society to get your sub minimum wage job).
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Communists nor government has a monopoly on corruption, far from it.

Do you have a cite for above? Capitalism has lifted billions out of extreme poverty the last several decades, saving a ridiculous amount of lives never seen before in human history.

You should look at information from places like the various UN agencies (UNICEF, WHO, etc.). Here is a fairly decent recent summary with links to the source. The problem is not production of food, it is fair distribution. That has led to health problems at both ends of the spectrum, with an epidemic in both obesity and malnutrition; it also results in massive waste where at least 25% of the global food produced for human consumption is thrown out. Yes parts of the world like Latin-America and south-east Asia have improved since the 90's, but other parts have not.

Capitalism, especially that linked to oil, is the leading cause of strife in the world.

Offline kimmy

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2018, 09:40:47 am »
The proof is in the pudding though.  Fascism has led to many millions of deaths, but communism has led to even more, to around 100 million for most estimates, more than all the deaths in WWII, and mostly because of their "economic beliefs".

Though Marxism is different than Marxism-Leninism or Maoism.  Never met a Leninist prof.  But I doubt a Marxist-Leninist speaker would get banned or booted or shouted down despite the mass death & horror of their ideas.  The point is, far-right and far-left are filled with equally horrible ideas, but are treated with a double-standard in our society and in universities.

I think history shows that most of the deaths attributed to communism are not because of the economic beliefs themselves, but because they were implemented by totalitarian regimes that went to horrific extremes to enforce their policies and crush dissent. I think present-day communists envision a utopian sharing society, but don't wish to see it implemented through mass murder.  The notion that it could be achieved without mass murder may be unrealistic, of course, but that's not their objective.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2018, 09:47:20 am »
Odious beliefs which are the bookend for the anti-white, anti-christian, anti-semitic nonsense that is lauded in many academic circles today. A member of the NYT editorial board is on the record peddling hate with a viciousness that would make Richard Spencer blush but faces no consequences because the targets of her hate are white people. While it is good that you distinguish between the alt-right and right of center thinkers your argument that there is not a double standard fails.

I think we probably have different standards for what qualifies as "anti-white" or "anti-Christian".  I don't think discussion around the concept of "white privilege", for example, qualifies as anti-white, and I'm not sure I can think of anything that really qualifies as anti-Christian going on right now.  Antisemitism is being peddled by both the Islams and their cheerleaders as well as the alt-right and their confederates, so I think that's a push.

On the rare occasions when somebody who is genuinely anti-white opens their yap (like the Toronto BLM lady for example) they're rightly criticized for it.

 -k

Offline cybercoma

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2018, 10:00:25 am »
Could you point out what ideas specifically you have a problem with. Implementation by Stalin and Mao are not the same as the ideology. Capitalism brought us the slave trade, therefore we should ban and boot anyone preaching capitalist ideas according to your standard. Even today, many millions die annually of malnutrition and related causes thanks to capitalists; estimates are about 14 million a year due to capitalism which is an order of magnitude higher than communism ever caused (based on the 100 million total estimate that CG has supplied above, and also mostly because of capitalist "economic beliefs").
People who cite 100s of millions of deaths from Communism also fail to recognize the famine that hit the Soviet Union which was responsible for not only the deaths of political dissidents, but also the party loyalists at the time. Stalin was a killer, but this Neo-Nazi game of diminishing Hitler's atrocities by pretending that Stalin was even remotely as barbaric as fascists is utter crap.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2018, 10:57:43 am »
Why do Marxists and communists not get pilloried the way the alt-right do? Because Marxists and communists are defined by economic beliefs, while the alt-right are defined by hate. 

It's been my experience that the far left hates every bit as much as the 'alt right'. And let's not forget that we don't even know what 'alt right' is. A lot of people on the Left call Jordan Peterson and Benjamin Shapiro alt-right.

You say the Marxists and Communists are defined by economic beliefs, and that's true in our culture, but that's not what we've seen from Marxists and Communists over the years. In fact, not a single Marxist or Communist government has limited itself to economic changes. With no exceptions, they've hunted down political and ideological enemies and implemented brutal autocratic rule wherever they've taken power. Marxists and Communists have been responsible for more slaughter in the last hundred years than Fascists have. Oh, of course, the Marxists and Communists you run into today just shrug all that off. Those weren't 'true' Marxist or Communist or Socialist regimes! No, no! But don't worry, THEY have the true philosophical and ideological keys to proper Communist/Marxist rule! THEY won't resort to death squads or gulags or mass murder? Probably. Unless it's necessary anyway, to achieve the proper remaking of society. But don't worry, the ends justify the means.

We properly denounce fascists as a danger to society. We should denounce Marxists and Communists as being just as dangerous, if not even more dangerous.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2018, 11:02:53 am »
Could you point out what ideas specifically you have a problem with. Implementation by Stalin and Mao are not the same as the ideology.

That's the old canard of the far left again. No, no, we can't look back at what previous communist regimes did! They weren't the properly enlightened Communists like us! We'll be different! Trust us!

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Capitalism brought us the slave trade,

The slave trade hugely predates Capitalism. Try again.
Capitalism has brought us the wealthiest societies in the history of the world. What exactly have Communist societies achieved?

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Even today, many millions die annually of malnutrition and related causes thanks to capitalists;

This stat brought to you by your local people's committee for thought control. Don't worry about cites or evidence. Would we lie to YOU?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2018, 11:08:03 am »
Also, Marxism is dead as an economic belief.  It's chief use today is to scaremonger right of centre folks by scotch taping identity politics and tax increases to it.

Nothing to see here folks. There's no Marxists. It's just fearmongering from the alt-right. Move along, please. We on the left are all wonderful people! Really!

Marxism is a respected doctrine throughout our university system, and you'll find few in the NDP dismissing its value. In the UK it's quite possible Labour could take power in the next election, and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn praised Karl Marx as a great thinker. There are many Marxists in his caucus. Communism is far from dead, because the Left still respects Communists and Marxists. That is why they are far more of a danger to democracy than Fascists.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline John Mark Taylor

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2018, 11:10:41 am »
And the right plays footsie with white nationalists and fascists, so...?
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2018, 11:15:52 am »
I think history shows that most of the deaths attributed to communism are not because of the economic beliefs themselves, but because they were implemented by totalitarian regimes that went to horrific extremes to enforce their policies and crush dissent. I think present-day communists envision a utopian sharing society, but don't wish to see it implemented through mass murder.  The notion that it could be achieved without mass murder may be unrealistic, of course, but that's not their objective.


Try talking to one sometime. You'll find beneath that amiable exterior is a quite resolution that sees their view of the world as the only proper one, one which is best for people, and a willingness to do whatever is necessary to bring it about. They never invision mass murder, of course. Do you actually think the people who ran all the previous communist/marxist states started out thinking of all the people they would slaughter or all the deaths they would cause? Don't kid yourself. Today's Communists will kill just as many as the ones from twenty or thirty years ago if its necessary to bring about their Utopian world.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2018, 11:18:33 am »
People who cite 100s of millions of deaths from Communism also fail to recognize the famine that hit the Soviet Union which was responsible for not only the deaths of political dissidents, but also the party loyalists at the time. Stalin was a killer, but this Neo-Nazi game of diminishing Hitler's atrocities by pretending that Stalin was even remotely as barbaric as fascists is utter crap.

Bullshit. Every Communist regime has been totalitarian. None had any interest in democracy or any kind of freedom for the people. All were corrupt. All of them killed anyone who opposed them. Today's version would act no differently if they took power.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2018, 11:20:44 am »
And the right plays footsie with white nationalists and fascists, so...?

Bullshit.  You don't care that open Marxists are respected in Left wing political parties and on college campuses but you'll desperately hunt down a case where someone associated with white supremacy or white nationalism once had a meeting with someone in a conservative party and hold that aloft triumphantly. No open fascist or nazi would be tolerated by any conservative party. You sure as **** can't say the same about Commies and Marxists and the Left.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: People’s Party of Canada launched
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2018, 11:24:43 am »
That is an example of an opinion, not a fact.

Just the facts of history.

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Yes, capitalism is great at deciding if you want an iPhone or and Android, or even if there is a market for a cell phone. It however fails miserably at providing the basic necessities of life (food, shelter, and transportation when demanded by the capitalist society to get your sub minimum wage job).

So compare how its done with Marxist, Communist or even Socialist regimes. Want to compare how Canada's done with Venezuela? Communist, Marxist and Socialist regimes have been associated with extreme poverty and shortages of every conceivable need.
...
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Communists nor government has a monopoly on corruption, far from it.

But they are associated with totalitarianism, and all totalitarian regimes are corrupt.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum