Author Topic: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)  (Read 11432 times)

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2020, 05:42:21 pm »
So what about all the governments that came after JAM, what did they do. Laurier was PM for 15 years after JAM and is regarded as one of the greatest PM's ever. He didn't do anything to change it. JAM gets all the heat for residential schools but PM after PM from both parties did nothing.

**** them too.
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2020, 05:43:13 pm »
Tommy Douglas had nothing to say on residential schools and he also said homosexuality was a mental illness. He was voted The Greatest Canadian.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2020, 05:45:07 pm »
Their culture was based on a system of communal lands and sustainable hunting. That was over and it wasn't coming back, and they thought they needed help to learn the new ways so they could move forward and not be left behind. I don't think they saw themselves as killing their culture because their culture was already killed.

I get what you're trying to say, but you're wrong on this. The residential schools was of a piece with other deliberate policies designed to subjugate and destroy the indigenous population like the reserve system, Indian agents, the pass system and deliberate starvation (all of which were crafted by the same architects).

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2020, 05:47:40 pm »
Tommy Douglas had nothing to say on residential schools and he also said homosexuality was a mental illness. He was voted The Greatest Canadian.

It's one thing to hold beliefs that were of their time, but are wrong by contemporary standards, quite another to hold beliefs and enact policies that destroy uncountable lives.

Offline wilber

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2020, 05:51:34 pm »
It's one thing to hold beliefs that were of their time, but are wrong by contemporary standards, quite another to hold beliefs and enact policies that destroy uncountable lives.

So you don't hold Douglas accountable for the beliefs of his time but you do hold the people responsible for the schools accountable for the beliefs of their time. Nice double standard.
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guest18

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2020, 06:28:21 pm »
I get what you're trying to say, but you're wrong on this. The residential schools was of a piece with other deliberate policies designed to subjugate and destroy the indigenous population like the reserve system, Indian agents, the pass system and deliberate starvation (all of which were crafted by the same architects).
Yes, otherwise known as colonialism. But the residential schools were established after the lands were divvied up to white people as private property. Indigenous peoples were already subjugated. South of us, in places like Minnesota, they were seen as wild hunter-gatherers who were incompatible with white culture and they were being exterminated,  even with bounties on their scalps. I think the cultural genocide was seen as a more palatable alternative to the real genocide going on, and that it was felt to be necessary because the previous economy that sustained their culture had already been eliminated.
Perhaps the residential schools actually saved them from total annihilation, giving them a chance to save what's left of their culture so it can grow in 21st century "decolonial" colonialism.

Offline JMT

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2020, 07:13:31 pm »
Obviously.  But I don't think Sir John A thought to himself "We need a program to help these natives by starving, beating, and molesting them".

Of course, we in fact know, that he purposely starved indigenous people.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2020, 07:34:28 pm »
Tommy Douglas had nothing to say on residential schools and he also said homosexuality was a mental illness. He was voted The Greatest Canadian.

Virtually everyone born before the 20th century was a homophobe who disagreed with gay marriage.  By that standard everyone in the past was a terrible human being.  People back then rode horse and buggy and didn't have electricity.  In my city they're trying to change the name of a town that's been around for 200 years because the founder was a Brit who owned slaves.  We can acknowledge our history without erasing it.

I'm no expert on the residential schools.  I have no idea exactly what was going through the head of Sir John A etc., I'd really have to study the residential schools issue.

That said, I think everyone here agrees those schools were horrific.
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Online Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2020, 07:44:59 pm »
Virtually everyone born before the 20th century was a homophobe who disagreed with gay marriage.  By that standard everyone in the past was a terrible human being.

Not everyone was like that...   there were gay people back then too, who were often victims of violence.  Anyone who perpetrated that violence WAS a terrible human being. 



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That said, I think everyone here agrees those schools were horrific.

Except folks still perpetuate the lie that they were built to educate native children.   That’s a lie.
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2020, 07:49:43 pm »
Not everyone was like that...   there were gay people back then too, who were often victims of violence.  Anyone who perpetrated that violence WAS a terrible human being. 


Same sex relationships were a criminal offence in Canada until 1969.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2020, 07:59:19 pm »
Not everyone was like that...   there were gay people back then too, who were often victims of violence.  Anyone who perpetrated that violence WAS a terrible human being.

Well yes, but I never said anything about violence.  Violence against anyone is wrong and always has been.

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Except folks still perpetuate the lie that they were built to educate native children.   That’s a lie.

Why was the school system built?
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Online Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2020, 08:10:21 pm »
Well yes, but I never said anything about violence.  Violence against anyone is wrong and always has been.

Not against natives it wasn’t....   it was perfectly fine. 

Why would you say the violence was wrong and those people were wrong, but you don’t say that taking native children away from their parents forcefully was wrong too?

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Why was the school system built?

You clearly didn’t read the educational material I linked to earlier.  It explained this. 

They were literally built to strip native children of their culture.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 08:12:15 pm by the_squid »
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Online Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2020, 08:12:43 pm »
Same sex relationships were a criminal offence in Canada until 1969.

I’m well aware that the laws were unjust.  Thanks.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2020, 08:28:52 pm »
They were literally built to strip native children of their culture.

Why did the government want to do that?
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Offline JMT

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2020, 08:36:43 pm »
Why did the government want to do that?

Religion, cultural 'superiority,' racism, etc. It didn't start with residential schools, and it didn't end with them either.