Author Topic: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)  (Read 2157 times)

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Online Mr. Perfect

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2020, 02:21:55 pm »
It was without a doubt a political cheap shot. My question is, was what he said factually accurate?

The people who started these schools thought they were doing the right thing, what they became and what was done to these kids by many of the people running the schools is another matter.

We judge these people through eyes 150 years later. No doubt people 150 years from now will sanctimoniously judge the things we say and do according to their standards. I doubt we will measure up.

The first residential schools were instituted a mere 47 years after slavery was abolished in the British Empire. Racism was fashionable at the time, the Empire was at its height. These were people of their time acting according to the conventions of their time. As abhorrent as we find these things now, it doesn't make them bad people.

You’re simply wrong.  They were not created just for education.  They were made to destroy indigenous culture, which cause irreparable harm.  It doesn’t do any good whatsoever to try and sympathize with the colonizers.  It just makes him look like an awful person with backwards views.  Canada was wrong then and it’s wrong now.

Offline wilber

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2020, 02:52:36 pm »
You’re simply wrong.  They were not created just for education.  They were made to destroy indigenous culture, which cause irreparable harm.  It doesn’t do any good whatsoever to try and sympathize with the colonizers.  It just makes him look like an awful person with backwards views.  Canada was wrong then and it’s wrong now.

You assume they had the same idea of education as we do. Sure it was wrong but they really believed these kids would be better off being immersed in western ways.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2020, 03:06:13 pm »
Complete nonsense.  That’s what they became. But that wasn’t the intention of the schools from what I’ve read.  Don’t be so offended when a politician speaks the truth.  I guess I can’t blame you, you’re used to Trudeau’s double speak.  But anything to distract the public from Junior’s failures.

Technically, they were to provide an education, but that education was specifically designed to "civilize" indigenous children by destroying their culture, language and community ties.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2020, 03:11:23 pm »
It was without a doubt a political cheap shot. My question is, was what he said factually accurate?

The people who started these schools thought they were doing the right thing, what they became and what was done to these kids by many of the people running the schools is another matter.

We judge these people through eyes 150 years later. No doubt people 150 years from now will sanctimoniously judge the things we say and do according to their standards. I doubt we will measure up.

The first residential schools were instituted a mere 47 years after slavery was abolished in the British Empire. Racism was fashionable at the time, the Empire was at its height. These were people of their time acting according to the conventions of their time. As abhorrent as we find these things now, it doesn't make them bad people.


We judge people by their actions, not by their intentions or **** up conceptions of right or wrong.



Offline wilber

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2020, 03:14:49 pm »

We judge people by their actions, not by their intentions or **** up conceptions of right or wrong.

No, you judge them by your conceptions of right or wrong.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2020, 03:17:16 pm »
No, you judge them by your conceptions of right or wrong.

As far as I know, starving, beating and molesting kids have been considered Bad Things for a very long time, so I'm not sure we're talking about some newfangled set of standards here.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2020, 03:21:27 pm »
As I said above, O'Tool was technically correct about the intent of the residential schools, though the concept of education there is completely divorced from what we would associate with the term normally. But the most egregious part of his diatribe was the part where he was going on about the fact that Liberal prime ministers opened more residential schools than Conservatives, which is just as meaningless a factoid as the Republicans being the party that ended slavery in the U.S. the GOPification of the CPC continues.

Offline wilber

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2020, 03:48:53 pm »
As far as I know, starving, beating and molesting kids have been considered Bad Things for a very long time, so I'm not sure we're talking about some newfangled set of standards here.

I don’t think they were back then either. I also don’t think that was the intent when they were established. What I really blame them for is lack of oversight and turning a blind eye to abuses but that went on long after they were established and all parties were guilty.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2020, 03:58:07 pm »
You assume they had the same idea of education as we do. Sure it was wrong but they really believed these kids would be better off being immersed in western ways.
They possessed ancient knowledge nearly thousands of years old about why doing unto others as they'd have done to them was so important. What they believe doesn't matter compared to what they knew. They would have known it was wrong during the first minute of the first step of the process in the distress of kids being separated from their parents on the beach prior to disappearing onto a boat.

You seem to be assuming human beings had no idea what inhumanity meant back then.  I suspect Neanderthals had a better idea of what inhumanity meant.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 04:00:41 pm by eyeball »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2020, 03:58:48 pm »
I don’t think they were back then either. I also don’t think that was the intent when they were established. What I really blame them for is lack of oversight and turning a blind eye to abuses but that went on long after they were established and all parties were guilty.

The abuse was an inevitable byproduct of the school's intended purpose and organization.

But even if you want to tell yourself the people who set these monstrosities up had good intentions: who gives a ****?

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2020, 04:03:49 pm »
It was without a doubt a political cheap shot. My question is, was what he said factually accurate?

The people who started these schools thought they were doing the right thing, what they became and what was done to these kids by many of the people running the schools is another matter.

We judge these people through eyes 150 years later. No doubt people 150 years from now will sanctimoniously judge the things we say and do according to their standards. I doubt we will measure up.

The first residential schools were instituted a mere 47 years after slavery was abolished in the British Empire. Racism was fashionable at the time, the Empire was at its height. These were people of their time acting according to the conventions of their time. As abhorrent as we find these things now, it doesn't make them bad people.

To say their heart was in the right place is offensive.  It diminishes, excuses and tries to justify the horrors that took place.

We would never say the abusive husband was just trying to teach wifely duties by assaulting her and he didn't know better because in those days it was ok to hit your wife.  We are rightfully aghast. 

Same goes for residential schools, there is no they were awful 'but' anything.  They were awful.  Period.

Offline Omni

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2020, 04:07:24 pm »
I am the product of a couple of people who weren't even born in Canada and made their way to this country from a foreign land across the pond. Nobody tried to wrest me from their grasp growing up or beat the **** out of me if I attempted to do the Highland Fling. Why not?, simply because we are/were pasty white.

Online Mr. Perfect

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2020, 04:14:36 pm »
Sure it was wrong ....

If you’re O’Toole, you should stop there.

The rest is an attempt to justify atrocities. 
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2020, 04:20:46 pm »
To say their heart was in the right place is offensive.  It diminishes, excuses and tries to justify the horrors that took place.

We would never say the abusive husband was just trying to teach wifely duties by assaulting her and he didn't know better because in those days it was ok to hit your wife.  We are rightfully aghast. 

Same goes for residential schools, there is no they were awful 'but' anything.  They were awful.  Period.

I'm saying they had different standards. You want to judge them from a different age and perspective. The idea of the schools was a product of the age, what happened in them was terrible by any standard. The abuse in those schools spanned many decades and many governments. O'Toole using it as a political talking point was bullshit, Liberals and Conservatives share the blame for letting it go on for so long.
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Online Mr. Perfect

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Re: The Official Opposition thread (was O’Toole thread)
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2020, 04:22:46 pm »
To say their heart was in the right place is offensive.  It diminishes, excuses and tries to justify the horrors that took place.

This part is important.  Well said.   

It also dismisses the opinions of people opposed to what they did, which there were.  So to say hat no one knew it was wrong is BS.

If they would have asked the parents of the children, they could have told them exactly how wrong it was to do what they were doing.

Wilber Posts as if it was a universal view that the children should be stolen from parents and “educated” out of their culture.  It wasn’t.  So people DID know it was wrong to do this.
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