Author Topic: No llores por mí Alberta  (Read 34725 times)

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Offline waldo

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #735 on: September 20, 2020, 05:38:44 pm »
What Albertans pay in provincial taxes has no bearing on how much tax revenue it sends to Ottawa.

pissOff! You're the one feverishly trying to make this connection - not me!  ;D

Alberta's deficits are its problem. How much revenue Albertans can send to Ottawa is the RoC's problem because they have been sending a lot more than they get back in federal spending.

and even a small sales tax (small relative to the rest of Canada) introduced in Alberta could result in $5 billion a year revenues for the province... notwithstanding reintroducing a carbon tax that Kenney's UCP terminated (one that doesn't need to be completely "revenue neutral") would be additional revenue. And then, of course, there's the low provincial income tax rate and the ridiculously lowest level of corporate tax in Canada - adjusting those would obviously bring significant monies to the province. You know... additional revenues to deal with the deficit you say is Alberta's problem - go figure, hey! Instead we get this perpetual Kenney/Alberta victimization ploy that involves Alberta/Albertans blaming "the feds" while refusing to recognize their undying dependence on fossil-fuels requires a real diversification plan - ya think!

You seem to take some sort of perverted glee in Alberta falling on hard times, completely ignoring the fact that if those high paying Alberta jobs disappear, so does a considerable portion of federal income tax, GST and other federal tax revenues.

you've been nattering on about this forevah! Get over it! By the by, apparently a most significant number of Alberta jobs have disappeared - with many never to return. How ever will Canada manage, hey!  ;D

Offline waldo

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #736 on: September 21, 2020, 11:34:38 am »
This 'Bitumen Boondoggle' is costing Alberta taxpayers billions --- the province's backing of the Sturgeon Refinery has saddled Albertans with a $26.4-billion liability.

Quote from: Andrew Leach - energy and environmental economist at the University of Alberta.
So, what's the end result of all this? The Alberta government is expecting to pay $26.4 billion over 30 years to refine bitumen into diesel, gas, oil and small volumes of other products; an average refining toll of over $73 per barrel of bitumen processed.

With the increase to $73 per barrel tolls, the refinery will only be profitable in periods when pipelines are substantially constrained, as they were in 2017 and 2018. With new pipelines under construction, and slow-to-non-existent oilsands production growth, that seems unlikely to be the case for many years. It's much more likely that we'll be losing money on every barrel.

So, in a sense, the Sturgeon Refinery contract is a multibillion-dollar bet against pipelines getting built. It's worth noting that by investing in the Keystone XL pipeline, the Alberta government also has a multibillion-dollar direct bet on that pipeline getting built, so we're now guaranteed to lose billions on at least one major government industrial policy bet. Fantastic.

We can't predict the future of the oil market, and pipelines like KXL are no sure thing, so it's possible that the refinery will still end up in-the-money if we see a combination of high oil product prices and low bitumen values in the future.

But even if that proves to be the case, Albertans should remember that we're paying more than $7 billion more than we should have for this refinery, and that those dollars are going to fund a return to a private entity that failed to live up to its side of a bargain with Albertans.

Offline JMT

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #737 on: September 23, 2020, 08:29:02 am »
Don't know how  many times I have posted this waldo but it still hasn't sunk in.

https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/201701E

How Alberta taxes itself has absolutely no bearing on how much tax revenue it sends to Ottawa.

And I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. Albertans pay the same taxes as everyone else in Canada. If you think that should change, just say so.
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Offline wilber

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #738 on: September 23, 2020, 09:25:49 am »
And I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. Albertans pay the same taxes as everyone else in Canada. If you think that should change, just say so.

We pay the same rates according to our incomes. The Alberta oil patch or any other high income worker is sending a lot more tax revenue to Ottawa than someone making half as much. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat that. Not only is he paying tax on more, he is paying a higher rate on the top portion of his income. Because he can afford to consume more, he is also sending more in things like GST.

If a place with a disproportionate number of high paying jobs like Alberta goes down, the whole country suffers for it.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 09:28:37 am by wilber »
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Offline waldo

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #739 on: September 23, 2020, 12:07:00 pm »
Alberta's deficits are its problem. How much revenue Albertans can send to Ottawa is the RoC's problem because they have been sending a lot more than they get back in federal spending.

and even a small sales tax (small relative to the rest of Canada) introduced in Alberta could result in $5 billion a year revenues for the province... notwithstanding reintroducing a carbon tax that Kenney's UCP terminated (one that doesn't need to be completely "revenue neutral") would be additional revenue. And then, of course, there's the low provincial income tax rate and the ridiculously lowest level of corporate tax in Canada - adjusting those would obviously bring significant monies to the province. You know... additional revenues to deal with the deficit you say is Alberta's problem - go figure, hey! Instead we get this perpetual Kenney/Alberta victimization ploy that involves Alberta/Albertans blaming "the feds" while refusing to recognize their undying dependence on fossil-fuels requires a real diversification plan - ya think!

hey waldo, member wilber says he wants more! Well then, remember that lil' ditty where the former Alberta NDP/federal Liberal government negotiated a provincial carbon tax in return for a commitment to cap tarsands emissions? You know, the carbon tax that was bringing in $1.4 billion/year to provincial coffers (albeit a third of Albertans received a comparable rebate)? Well, of course, Kenney's UCP would have nothing of this 'more revenue' shyte... and cancelled it; of course, in so doing, knowing full well that a federal carbon tax would replace it.

Offline waldo

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #740 on: September 23, 2020, 12:15:13 pm »
If a place with a disproportionate number of high paying jobs like Alberta goes down, the whole country suffers for it.

again, there's been a steady creeping loss of Alberta oil&gas related jobs since 2015 (even before 2015 in some analysis done). Since this is your continued ready go-to surely you have the actual total numbers of lost jobs... and their causal attribution, in kind. And forecasts! Don't forget forecasts on what number of those jobs are guestimated to return... and how many are deemed permanent losses. Once you gather up those numbers, will you comment on just how Canada has/is surviving without them returning your oft referenced 'big money' to "the feds" - yes?

by the by, any word on how that (missing) plan for Alberta diversification away from a dependency on oil&gas is coming along?

Offline JMT

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #741 on: September 23, 2020, 11:24:51 pm »
We pay the same rates according to our incomes. The Alberta oil patch or any other high income worker is sending a lot more tax revenue to Ottawa than someone making half as much. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat that. Not only is he paying tax on more, he is paying a higher rate on the top portion of his income. Because he can afford to consume more, he is also sending more in things like GST.

If a place with a disproportionate number of high paying jobs like Alberta goes down, the whole country suffers for it.

First of all, not necessarily. Second, the financial sector has abandoned oil with good reason.
Ottawa isn’t your culprit.
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Offline wilber

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #742 on: September 24, 2020, 09:08:23 pm »
First of all, not necessarily. Second, the financial sector has abandoned oil with good reason.
Ottawa isn’t your culprit.

Yes, necessarily. Are you now telling me aren't all taxed the same?
 
I'm not blaming Ottawa, I'm just trying to point out to other Canadians what this will mean for them.
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Offline JMT

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #743 on: September 27, 2020, 12:20:41 pm »
Yes, necessarily. Are you now telling me aren't all taxed the same?
 
I'm not blaming Ottawa, I'm just trying to point out to other Canadians what this will mean for them.

And like I keep telling you, it won't mean much.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #744 on: September 27, 2020, 01:30:27 pm »
First of all, not necessarily. Second, the financial sector has abandoned oil with good reason.
Ottawa isn’t your culprit.

Yes, the price of oil dropped in half suddenly in 2015 because of Saudi-led OPEC economic wafare via production supply and manipulating the global price in part to push Canada and the US out of the sector, and they've done a fine job.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 01:33:03 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline wilber

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #745 on: September 27, 2020, 02:25:36 pm »
And like I keep telling you, it won't mean much.

Right, losing the over $5000 each more in revenues that 4.3 million people send to Ottawa than they receive in federal spending won't mean much.

That's over 21 billion dollars but at the rate Ottawa is printing money, that might not be worth much in future.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 02:28:43 pm by wilber »
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Offline JMT

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #746 on: September 27, 2020, 07:48:36 pm »
Yes, the price of oil dropped in half suddenly in 2015 because of Saudi-led OPEC economic wafare via production supply and manipulating the global price in part to push Canada and the US out of the sector, and they've done a fine job.

That's not what I'm talking about. Most global investors want nothing to do with new oil projects.
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Offline wilber

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #747 on: September 27, 2020, 07:59:18 pm »
That's not what I'm talking about. Most global investors want nothing to do with new oil projects.

I'm talking about the revenues Ottawa has to spend.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #748 on: September 28, 2020, 12:47:12 am »
That's not what I'm talking about. Most global investors want nothing to do with new oil projects.

Yes because profits have been dramatically reduced due to falling oil prices plus supply can't expand to markets due to pipeline politics.  Anyone would be a fool to invest in the Alberta oil industry, it's been decimated.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: No llores por mí Alberta
« Reply #749 on: September 28, 2020, 12:53:34 am »
I'm talking about the revenues Ottawa has to spend.

The AB oil industry collapse has hurt federal government tax revenues, the Canadian dollar, the TSX and retired people's RRSP's, and the overall Canadian economy.  These are facts.  C'est la vie.
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