Author Topic: LNG a stranded asset?  (Read 2115 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2020, 09:33:05 am »
so what? Only an issue for wexiteers and their fomenting separatist ilk... which are you again?
Actually it is a 20B issue for the country’s treasury. Trudeau knows that and it’s why he called the TM expansion a matter of vital importance to the country.

I’m much less of a separatist than you. I don’t bash other Canadians because of where they live and how they make their living.
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Offline waldo

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2020, 10:25:07 am »
Actually it is a 20B issue for the country’s treasury. Trudeau knows that and it’s why he called the TM expansion a matter of vital importance to the country.

how do you equate Albertans respective like/proportionate fiscal transfers... to a pipeline? Like/proportionate to the same tax levels as any other like Canadian living in any other province other than Alberta.

I’m much less of a separatist than you. I don’t bash other Canadians because of where they live and how they make their living.

no - the waldo holds that, 'a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian', regardless of whether they're unfortunately impacted directly by a governing provincial conservative party. You're the one who perpetually extols an entitlement for Albertans.

for as much as you've made this your passionate hobby-horse, I don't seem to recall you ever offering what you wantDone to appease what you clearly perceive as a grandInjustice perpetrated against Albertans. C'mon member wilber, what is it you wantDone?

Offline wilber

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2020, 12:25:13 pm »
how do you equate Albertans respective like/proportionate fiscal transfers... to a pipeline? Like/proportionate to the same tax levels as any other like Canadian living in any other province other than Alberta.

no - the waldo holds that, 'a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian', regardless of whether they're unfortunately impacted directly by a governing provincial conservative party. You're the one who perpetually extols an entitlement for Albertans.



My problem is Canadians who either don't understand or wilfully ignore the fiscal realities. Regardless of the source, Albertans send more to Ottawa than their province receives in return and that surplus is distributed among other provinces. It is you that has the sense of entitlement.

Personally I would rather see Notley still in the Premiers chair but Albertans chose Kenny and I respect that. I have repeatedly said that Alberta separation would be a disaster for Canada and an even bigger disaster for my province, B.C. You go on about western separatism when it is at best a fringe movement and Kenny has never said anything about separation, only getting a better deal for Alberta. You perceive that as a threat to you politically while at the same time you never have anything to say about a province that has repeatedly elected separatist provincial governments and sent a majority of separatist MP's to Ottawa. Simply because you feel free to bash Alberta because you see it as a lost cause for Liberals, whereas Quebec can be a source of strength to your party. You are a 100% political animal and can only be objective if it doesn't interfere with your own political agenda.
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Offline waldo

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2020, 12:58:04 am »
My problem is Canadians who either don't understand or wilfully ignore the fiscal realities. Regardless of the source, Albertans send more to Ottawa than their province receives in return and that surplus is distributed among other provinces. It is you that has the sense of entitlement.

oh the injustice of it all!!! By the by, still waiting for you to state what you want/expect the federal government to do in regards Kenney's plaintive call for a, "fairDeal". Is there a problem for you in being able to articulate your thoughts on this hobby-horse of yours?

you say fiscal realities? What fiscal realities? You mean the reality that the province of Alberta is, once again, caught up in another BUST cycle that, once again, reinforces the absence of real economic diversification in Alberta. Or the reality that the province of Alberta recently enacted the lowest corporate tax rate in Canada? Or the reality of the province of Alberta's $4.7-billion giveaway to the largest and most profitable corporations? Or the reality of the province of Alberta as the only province in Canada without a sales tax? Etc., etc., etc.. Or the fiscal reality per the following graphic:

 

You go on about western separatism when it is at best a fringe movement and Kenny has never said anything about separation, only getting a better deal for Alberta.

quit making shyte up! Separation is implicitly tied to your continued nattering on about Alberta's "fiscal gap"... each and every time you bring it up/forward, you raise the subject/profile for separation... particularly when you refuse to state what you want the federal government to do about it! Stop advocating for separation!

You perceive that as a threat to you politically while at the same time you never have anything to say about a province that has repeatedly elected separatist provincial governments and sent a majority of separatist MP's to Ottawa. Simply because you feel free to bash Alberta because you see it as a lost cause for Liberals, whereas Quebec can be a source of strength to your party. You are a 100% political animal and can only be objective if it doesn't interfere with your own political agenda.

geezaz! Quebecers voting for the BQ isn't a separatist vote... they vote BQ because it has a singular focus on Quebec. Surely you're aware of this - surely!  ;D Care to state just how I'm, as you say, "bashing Alberta"? Is speaking of inconvenient truths to you/Alberta... bashing Alberta?

Offline wilber

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2020, 09:52:43 am »
Separatist Quebec received 13 billion more in federal spending than it sent to Ottawa in revenues last year. Where do you think that money came from, Trudeau’s personal bank account?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 09:55:33 am by wilber »
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Offline wilber

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2020, 10:41:13 am »
Quote
geezaz! Quebecers voting for the BQ isn't a separatist vote... they vote BQ because it has a singular focus on Quebec. Surely you're aware of this - surely!  ;D Care to state just how I'm, as you say, "bashing Alberta"? Is speaking of inconvenient truths to you/Alberta... bashing Alberta?

So when Albertans send a bunch of MP's from a national party that you don't like and take the similar initiatives provincially without threatening separatism, they are being uppity and the treasonous dogs should learn their place. Oh what a hypocrite your are waldo.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2020, 10:49:17 am »
Separatist Quebec received 13 billion more in federal spending than it sent to Ottawa in revenues last year. Where do you think that money came from, Trudeau’s personal bank account?

"Separatist Quebec"? Oh my! The waldo takes no solace in seeing you flummoxed to the point of uttering such bizarro labeling.  ;D

but again, you can't manage to state what you want the federal government to do about your perceived injustice... what will appease your passionate wail for, "a fairDeal", for Alberta? Your silence is... so telling!

hey now, did you believe the amount of federal income tax a Canadian pays should be based on the amount of that respective Canadian's income, regardless of province that respective Canadian lives in - YES or NO? Just answer the question, YES or NO?. Ya see, that accounts for a significant difference, per capita, in the amounts of federal income tax collected, Quebec versus Alberta. You know, per capita... the thingee you kept harping on forevah! And... didja know, there is a significant average age difference between the populations of Quebec versus Alberta... meaning Quebec has a higher requirement for applicable benefits/services! And wait, what's this... by the very nature of its large population base, there are significantly more avenues for federal spending in Quebec versus Alberta. Who knew, hey member wilber - who knew?

you ask, "where do I think the money came from"? Let's see... as federal expenditures, that money came from the deep federal expenditures well. You know, the deep well that holds $50.3 billion in total federal taxes paid by Quebecers... almost identical to the $49 billion paid by Albertans. So, cause I can, I'm going to answer you by stating I believe that money from the deep well came from federal tax paid by Quebecers... ya, that's my answer!  ;D Can you prove me wrong?

Offline waldo

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2020, 10:53:46 am »
So when Albertans send a bunch of MP's from a national party that you don't like and take the similar initiatives provincially without threatening separatism, they are being uppity and the treasonous dogs should learn their place. Oh what a hypocrite your are waldo.

only a die-hard partisan hypocrite, like you, would imply Kenney "initiatives" are not confrontational and don't presume to leverage so-called "western alienation; aka separtist bent"! I bet you think the KenneyWarRoom is a sound tactic... and its mega-failures to date are simply "start-up pains"!  ;D

Offline wilber

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2020, 11:07:03 am »
only a die-hard partisan hypocrite, like you, would imply Kenney "initiatives" are not confrontational and don't presume to leverage so-called "western alienation; aka separtist bent"! I bet you think the KenneyWarRoom is a sound tactic... and its mega-failures to date are simply "start-up pains"!  ;D

I don't know if they are a sound tactic or not. As I have said, I would prefer Notley was still Premier. I just think you are full of shyte. People like you are more of a danger to this country than most Albertans because you go out of your way to divide in order to advance your own political agenda.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline kimmy

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2020, 12:45:41 am »
Stop production and turn off the taps, then.
Keep your money in Alberta.
We'll put the oil subsidies into renewables, which will immediately be more profitable than fossils.

There's a misconception here that the subsidies given to oil/natural gas are money that could simply spent elsewhere. That just isn't true.

The subsidies given to oil and gas in Canada are overwhelmingly in the form of reduced royalties. Which means that if you "turn off the taps", you don't have $4 billion to spend elsewhere, it means that you have $0 to spend elsewhere.

I know that's going to be a confusing concept for some of you, so let's do a Sesame Street type thought experiment to explain how this works:

Jenny and Joey, the neighborhood kids, come to you and say they want to set up a lemonade stand on your driveway.  You agree on the condition that they have to pay you a 25 cent royalty on every cup of lemonade they sell.  At the end of they day, they have sold 10 cups of lemonade, and they pay you $2.50.  They're very disappointed, because they expected to sell more lemonade. People told them that 75 cents per cup was too expensive, because other lemonade stands are selling for 50 cents per cup.   Jenny and Joey want to cut their price to 50 cents per cup to compete with the other lemonade stands, but at 50 cents per cup they make much less profit, and the 25 cent royalty on each cup eats up most of their profit. They propose a new deal: they will pay you a royalty of 15 cents per cup.

Day two is much more successful for Jenny and Joey.  They sell 40 cups of lemonade!  They're pretty happy. As for you, your royalty revenue has increased from $2.50 to $6.00.  But you've been eyeing some LED solar garden lights, and more royalties would help pay for them. Remembering that you charged 25 cents per cup yesterday, and only 15 cents per cup today, you realize that your royalties on 40 cups could have been $10.00 rather than $6.00.   By your calculations, you estimate that you've subsidized Jenny and Joey $4.00 for today's lemonade sales. "That's $4 I could have spent on solar garden lights," you think to yourself.

So on day 3, you tell Jenny and Joey that the reduced royalty rate is over, they have to pay you 25 cents for each cup that they sell from your driveway.  They decide to "turn off the tap"... they decide to go home and do something else instead of selling lemonade. So rather than $10 in royalties, or $6.00 in royalties, or even $2.50 in royalties, you make no royalties at all on lemonade sales. That $4 you subsidized Joey and Jenny didn't turn into money that you could spend.   So while in a sense you're giving Jenny and Joey a break by reducing their royalties, the money isn't something you get to keep if Joey and Jenny stop selling lemonade from your driveway.


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline waldo

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2020, 03:23:54 am »
There's a misconception here that the subsidies given to oil/natural gas are money that could simply spent elsewhere. That just isn't true.

The subsidies given to oil and gas in Canada are overwhelmingly in the form of reduced royalties. Which means that if you "turn off the taps", you don't have $4 billion to spend elsewhere, it means that you have $0 to spend elsewhere.

too bad your lil' storyTime effort is for naught... you seem to have really put some effort into it!  ;D

of course, jurisdiction dependent but your "overwhelmingly" claim is overwhelmingly bogus! Let the waldo help ya out, hey!

here's a lil ditty giving a U.S. review/analysis example of BigOil subsidies:



here's an Alberta summation on BigOil subsidies that highlights a subsidy makeup that includes tax provisions, research grants, dedicated programs/initiatives (like carbon capture and sequestration (CCS) projects; emission reduction pilot and demonstration projects; loan guarantees for energy diversification initiatives; refinery cost sharing; transition cost payments to offset coal phaseout impacts; etc...)... oh, and also royalty credits/structure changes. Overwhelming, hey member kimmy?

Offline wilber

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2020, 11:27:40 am »
Subsidies are seen as an investments which are supposed to provide a greater return than their cost. I'm not sure I agree with them but they exist in many industries. Foreign based entertainment companies get massive tax incentives to make productions in BC and Ontario. You don't hear a lot of objections.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2020, 12:24:08 pm »
too bad your lil' storyTime effort is for naught... you seem to have really put some effort into it!  ;D

of course, jurisdiction dependent but your "overwhelmingly" claim is overwhelmingly bogus! Let the waldo help ya out, hey!

here's a lil ditty giving a U.S. review/analysis example of BigOil subsidies:


here's an Alberta summation on BigOil subsidies that highlights a subsidy makeup that includes tax provisions, research grants, dedicated programs/initiatives (like carbon capture and sequestration (CCS) projects; emission reduction pilot and demonstration projects; loan guarantees for energy diversification initiatives; refinery cost sharing; transition cost payments to offset coal phaseout impacts; etc...)... oh, and also royalty credits/structure changes. Overwhelming, hey member kimmy?


The same argument applies regarding tax expenditures is as to royalties.  Both are foregone revenue, not money we get to spend elsewhere if we wish.  If Jenny and Joey "turn off the taps" and stop selling lemonade, Granny still doesn't have the $4 to spend on other things. 

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
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Offline waldo

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #88 on: January 20, 2020, 12:10:42 am »
There's a misconception here that the subsidies given to oil/natural gas are money that could simply spent elsewhere. That just isn't true.
The same argument applies regarding tax expenditures is as to royalties.  Both are foregone revenue, not money we get to spend elsewhere if we wish.

say what! Foregone revenue... revenue the government... foregoes... whether in the form of reduced oil royalty monies collected, or reduced tax monies collected because of tax expenditures, are monies the government doesn't collect - doesn't have! Accordingly, this foregone revenue in the form of less money collected by government, can't be spent elsewhere by government. Pretty basic - and your point was what again?

in any case, to your original false claim: again, reduced royalties are not the/your claimed, overwhelming component of the subsidy makeup - tax provisions are.

Offline wilber

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Re: LNG a stranded asset?
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2020, 01:55:34 pm »
If a government gives a two dollar tax break to an industry and the result is four dollars in tax revenues from income, GST and business taxes generated by that industry, supporting industries and the businesses that support those industries, the net result is two dollars in extra revenues to government, not a two dollar loss that could have been spent elsewhere. There is also an added gain in that social services like EI and welfare will be less burdened if those companies and jobs didn't exist. It isn't a zero sum game.

Their effects may be debatable according to the subsidy but that is their intent.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 09:05:08 am by wilber »
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