Author Topic: gun control  (Read 670 times)

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Offline the_squid

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gun control
« on: March 12, 2018, 02:09:38 pm »
Seems to be a fracture in the Liberal caucus about gun control.  Rural vs urban ridings.

Also, Trudeau is putting his foot down in caucus meetings?  PMO staff attending caucus meetings that are meant for elected MPs to speak openly?  Seems Harper-esque.

Hill Times has a very in depth article about these issues.

https://www.hilltimes.com/2018/03/12/upcoming-gun-legislation-scaring-hell-liberal-caucus-pm-trudeaus-vitriolic-response-grit-mp-harveys-concerns-put/137000
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 03:15:46 am by the_squid »

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2018, 02:13:56 pm »
Also, Trudeau is putting his foot down in caucus meetings?  PMO staff attending caucus meetings that are meant for elected MPs to speak openly?  Seems Harper-esque.
I haven't read into it, but if how you've characterized it is true then I'm disgusted with Trudeau. One of the biggest issues in our country is the intrusion of the PMO onto the roles of MPs. The Prime Minister is not elected as an individual to lead the government. He leads by way of the confidence of the House. The backbencher MPs ought to have a measure of independence from Prime Minister, the least of which because they need to hold him accountable to the party's values. More importantly, they need to be independent in their representation of their constituents interests. If he presses the issue, the rural MPs from the Liberal party ought to resign from the party en masse and form a new party, effectively threatening his position as prime minister on the next confidence motion.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2018, 11:56:15 am »
I haven't read into it, but if how you've characterized it is true then I'm disgusted with Trudeau. One of the biggest issues in our country is the intrusion of the PMO onto the roles of MPs. The Prime Minister is not elected as an individual to lead the government. He leads by way of the confidence of the House. The backbencher MPs ought to have a measure of independence from Prime Minister, the least of which because they need to hold him accountable to the party's values. More importantly, they need to be independent in their representation of their constituents interests. If he presses the issue, the rural MPs from the Liberal party ought to resign from the party en masse and form a new party, effectively threatening his position as prime minister on the next confidence motion.

Don't worry. This is the new open and transparent government that is going to empower individual MPs and parliament. They said so in their campaign and we know Liberals never lie.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline the_squid

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2018, 10:15:36 am »
The country is probably ripe for further gun control measures, despite the rural-urban divide in the Liberal caucus.  The recent gun violence and the fact that Trudeau can attract 4000 people to a park in Penticton (how many would Scheer attract?  50 gun toting rednecks maybe?) Means the leader will be able to push gun control policies despite the divide. 
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2018, 11:28:01 am »
The country is probably ripe for further gun control measures, despite the rural-urban divide in the Liberal caucus.  The recent gun violence and the fact that Trudeau can attract 4000 people to a park in Penticton (how many would Scheer attract?  50 gun toting rednecks maybe?) Means the leader will be able to push gun control policies despite the divide.

By this measure Donald Trump is the greatest leader the US has ever had, and should be able to push through any legislation he wants. He attract enthusiastic crowds wherever he goes, far, far more than any Democratic party leader would draw.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2018, 11:30:30 am »
By this measure Donald Trump is the greatest leader the US has ever had, and should be able to push through any legislation he wants. He attract enthusiastic crowds wherever he goes, far, far more than any Democratic party leader would draw.

His so called "enthusiastic crowds" are often paid for.

Offline Omni

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2018, 11:35:15 am »
The country is probably ripe for further gun control measures, despite the rural-urban divide in the Liberal caucus.  The recent gun violence and the fact that Trudeau can attract 4000 people to a park in Penticton (how many would Scheer attract?  50 gun toting rednecks maybe?) Means the leader will be able to push gun control policies despite the divide.

I think most Canadians are well aware of the increased safety level we have on our streets vis-a-vis the US, and that that is in large part due to tighter gun controls, and therefore will accept a further tightening if recent events indicate they are needed.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2018, 11:47:06 am »
I think most Canadians are well aware of the increased safety level we have on our streets vis-a-vis the US, and that that is in large part due to tighter gun controls, and therefore will accept a further tightening if recent events indicate they are needed.

Switzerland has more guns than Canadians, including a lot of assault rifles. They have very few shootings.
Canada's lower rate of gun violence is related to its rate of violent crime and crime overall, and these are ALL much lower than in the US.

The source of most violent crime are the social factors and poverty within visible minority communities. That is true in the US, true in Canada, and true in the UK. It is mostly the criminal element within those communities, esp gangs, fighting it out with other gangs.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2018, 11:56:45 am »
Switzerland has more guns than Canadians, including a lot of assault rifles. They have very few shootings.
Canada's lower rate of gun violence is related to its rate of violent crime and crime overall, and these are ALL much lower than in the US.

The source of most violent crime are the social factors and poverty within visible minority communities. That is true in the US, true in Canada, and true in the UK. It is mostly the criminal element within those communities, esp gangs, fighting it out with other gangs.

And thankfully our gangs aren't as likely to be fighting it out with guns.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2018, 02:00:34 pm »
By this measure Donald Trump is the greatest leader the US has ever had, and should be able to push through any legislation he wants. He attract enthusiastic crowds wherever he goes, far, far more than any Democratic party leader would draw.

This isnít the USA and we arenít talking about Trump.   Your comparison is nonsensical. 
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2018, 02:37:14 pm »
This isnít the USA and we arenít talking about Trump.   Your comparison is nonsensical.

What the hell does it matter where we are? You spoke of the illustrious Justin as being a crowd pleaser, as if that gave him the bonafides to do whatever he wanted.
The comparison is perfect. There is no difference.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2018, 03:08:56 pm »
What the hell does it matter where we are? You spoke of the illustrious Justin as being a crowd pleaser, as if that gave him the bonafides to do whatever he wanted.
The comparison is perfect. There is no difference.

The comparison craters as soon as Trump opens his mouth and out fly the endless lies. what's he up to now, 4000 or so?

Offline wilber

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2018, 05:26:24 pm »
Switzerland has more guns than Canadians, including a lot of assault rifles. They have very few shootings.
Canada's lower rate of gun violence is related to its rate of violent crime and crime overall, and these are ALL much lower than in the US.

The source of most violent crime are the social factors and poverty within visible minority communities. That is true in the US, true in Canada, and true in the UK. It is mostly the criminal element within those communities, esp gangs, fighting it out with other gangs.

They have a lot of guns but more or less, no one is quite sure. Figures disagree widely. Since 2008, all guns that change hands must be registered.

All Swiss males must undergo military service and they have the option of keeping their weapon when they are finished. Ammunition for their assault rifles is available at particular ranges and subsidized, but must be used onsite.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2018, 07:20:48 pm »
I'm tired of the BS so I'm going to be blunt.  We don't have a gun problem, we have a "stupid people" problem. The root problem is that we have more and more people let into Canada from countries that already have very bad gun violence issues, & then it becomes our problem.  We're letting more and more people into Canada (who often settle in the GTA) who have poor family values and poor values & behaviours in general, so these women and men make stupid decisions which lead to unwanted pregnancies and children (Canadian born) outside wedlock.  Many of the fathers aren't even listed on the long-form birth certificate because it was a f**k-and-flee, and these children grow up without fathers.

My friend works in the gov, part of his job is issuing birth certificates.  He lives in an area with a lot of Jamaicans and South Asians.  He says it's alarming how many Jamaican children have no father listed on their birth certificates.  With people from cultures like India, that almost never ever happens, and they very rarely get divorced either.  Different values & cultures.

These single mothers aren't well-educated when they come here, and if they're trying to get educated they have to drop out to care for the baby.  So the young boy grows up in a poor neighbourhood and mom's working 3 jobs and smoking weed & crack just to cope so she's not emotionally available, and there's no male father figure to guide the young man.  So the kid's home life sucks, he's directionless, so as the academic research shows, he joins a gang so he can have some semblance of family social bond in his life, and even have guys older than him to have as male role models.  The mom is out to lunch so she has no time to help the kid in school plus she's from a culture that may not emphasize education much, and the school itself is full of other peers in similar situations, so the kid does poorly in school and sees the only way to get rich is to deal drugs, steal cars, sell guns, traffic sex etc. with a gang.  The gang offers money and a family and protection in a rough area, so he joins.  And if he's not in a gang, then he can be hanging out with shady friends/characters anyways.

So then sometimes bad stuff goes down - a bad drug deal, someone having sex with his girl etc. so the guns, acquired illegally or legally, get used.

The Danforth shooter had a shady brother (and acquaintances) who dealt drugs and had illegal firearms.  There's multiple problems here, and gun laws will hardly scratch the surface.  So what to do?

1. Don't let uneducated people with poor family values & broken homes who make poor life decisions into this country to procreate and spread their problems and their country's problems into this country.  Stop the problem at the source.  Provide resources to screen these migrants better.

2. Those that are here or need to be here (refugees etc) need to have better education support in those poor communities for their children, including a lot of sex education and access to birth control, and have male teachers and social workers in these schools so these young men have role models to teach them how to be responsible adults that make good decisions.  And teach the ladies to close their legs too for effs sake unless you're on birth control, and don't let the guy spew in you without a condom.  Also, after-class school programs to help with homework when parents don't have the time/energy/ability.

3.  More free after-school recreational programs for these kids so they have a safe & supportive place to go if mom's not home.  Even if they're just playing videogames or sports or skateboarding etc just give them a supervised recreational hangout.

3.  Increase in GOOD & BETTER-trained policing in their neighbourhoods, with as many people of their ethnic background as possible to provide good role models.

Yes, also make sure the guns laws are strong and the illegal gun smuggling is curtailed.  But there's only so much we can do too.  If you're going to bring in a sizeable segment of refugees/migrants from places like Somalia, Jamaica, El Salvador, Afghanistan etc. and not screen them properly to weed out the bad ones, expect to get results including gun violence rates like those countries do.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 07:29:18 pm by Coonlight Graham »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Liberal caucus and gun control
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2018, 08:04:20 pm »
The comparison craters as soon as Trump opens his mouth and out fly the endless lies. what's he up to now, 4000 or so?

Irrelevant.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum