Author Topic: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?  (Read 27003 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #375 on: June 17, 2019, 01:43:57 pm »
No, JT is not using the abortion issue at all. The Liberal party policy is a woman has the right to choose which is in accordance with Section 7 of the Charter that has long been upheld.

In 1988, the Supreme Court of Canada decision in Morgentaler et. al. v. Her Majesty the Queen and the Attorney General of Canada, indexed by the court as R. v. Morgentaler, declared the entirety of Section 251 of the Criminal Code to be of no force or effect because it was held to violate section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 7 states that: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the security of the person, and the right not to be deprived thereof, except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice."

The majority of the court in Morgentaler did not find that there was a substantive right to abortion under Section 7, as this was only explicitly argued by Wilson. The court found it unnecessary to consider whether the substance of section 7 implies a right to abortion, but instead made its decision on procedural grounds.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada#Supreme_Court_decision
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #376 on: June 17, 2019, 01:53:13 pm »
How does a woman's right to choose affect your charter freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief, opinion, or expression. You are free to do as you want, nobody is stopping you.

JT tried to deny federal funding for the Canada Summer Jobs progrhttps://cdn.smfboards.com/caf/images/bbc/quote.gifam to any organization that dared express any opposition to abortion.

Also:

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau says anti-abortion MPs already sitting in his caucus can run as candidates, but will still be expected to vote along pro-choice lines on any legislation regarding abortion.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justin-trudeau-clarifies-abortion-stance-for-liberal-mps-1.2679783

Ok so Liberal MP's, and especially any new candidates, don't have Charter rights either of conscience, religion, thought, belief, opinion, or expression.  MP's don't represent their constituents, only Trudeau's opinions.  Trudeau is not the Liberal Party of Canada.  If MP's wanted to a make a law banning abortions at 8 or 9 months, Trudeau says they can't, even though there's absolutely no Charter SCC decisions protecting as such, in fact seems to be the opposite.

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Stop trampling on women's rights.

 ::) That's like me saying stop trampling on Canadian's explicit Charter rights, and the rights of unborn babies.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #377 on: June 17, 2019, 01:57:02 pm »
In 1988, the Supreme Court of Canada decision in Morgentaler et. al. v. Her Majesty the Queen and the Attorney General of Canada, indexed by the court as R. v. Morgentaler, declared the entirety of Section 251 of the Criminal Code to be of no force or effect because it was held to violate section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 7 states that: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the security of the person, and the right not to be deprived thereof, except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice."

The majority of the court in Morgentaler did not find that there was a substantive right to abortion under Section 7, as this was only explicitly argued by Wilson. The court found it unnecessary to consider whether the substance of section 7 implies a right to abortion, but instead made its decision on procedural grounds.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada#Supreme_Court_decision

Put simply for you, the SCOC simply took the page from the criminal code that laid out the grounds for a legal abortion and threw it in the garbage as it was deemed to go against Section 7. Section 7 doesn't, and didn't need to mention abortion.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #378 on: June 17, 2019, 02:06:23 pm »
JT tried to deny federal funding for the Canada Summer Jobs program to any organization that dared express any opposition to abortion.
...
Trudeau is not the Liberal Party of Canada.

I believe that is jobs tied to anti-abortion activities. Nobody is having their rights trampled on, they just can't use government funds to trample on other peoples rights.

No, Trudeau is not the Liberal Party of Canada. The membership is, and it is the membership that voted for the policy at the party convention.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #379 on: June 17, 2019, 02:07:33 pm »
Put simply for you, the SCOC simply took the page from the criminal code that laid out the grounds for a legal abortion and threw it in the garbage as it was deemed to go against Section 7.

Correct.

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Section 7 doesn't, and didn't need to mention abortion.

If there was a Charter right to abortion, it should have been added to the Charter, instead of leaving it up to the Courts to subjectively decide the issue.  It would have just made things a lot easier and clearer.  Questions like is an unborn child a "person", is an unborn baby in the womb at 9months a person and does it have any rights to life/liberty etc.?  What about a fetus at 1 month?  These are tough questions that need to be decided.

There is no legal right to abortion in Canada.  There are simply no laws restricting it or not restricting it.  I have no issue with this, but I do have an issue with some of the way Trudeau has handled the issue in regards to speech etc
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #380 on: June 17, 2019, 02:22:09 pm »
I believe that is jobs tied to anti-abortion activities. Nobody is having their rights trampled on, they just can't use government funds to trample on other peoples rights.

Under the new rules [for Canada Summer Jobs], organizations must check off a box in their online application that contains an attestation stating that both their core mandate and the job they want to use federal funds to fill, both respect the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as well as other rights and associated case law.

“These include reproductive rights, and the right to be free from discrimination on the basis of sex, religion, race, national or ethnic origin, colour, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity or expression,” reads the attestation on the application form.

Because of that phrase — and its explicit mention of reproductive rights — some faith groups and anti-abortion groups say ticking the box would require them to betray their beliefs and that requiring them to do so is a violation of their constitutional rights to freedom of religion and freedom of expression.


The right to "be free from discrimination on the basis of sex, religion, race, national or ethnic origin, colour, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity or expression" is explicitly quoted almost word for word in the Charter Section 15.  "Reproductive rights" is not, and is far too vague.

Anyways, the limits remain on Canada Summer Jobs, they just simply removed it from the attestation.  So Service Canada officers make the decision to deny funding or not.  Lawsuit remains pending.  We'll see.

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No, Trudeau is not the Liberal Party of Canada. The membership is, and it is the membership that voted for the policy at the party convention.

Link?
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #381 on: June 17, 2019, 02:24:11 pm »
I believe that is jobs tied to anti-abortion activities. Nobody is having their rights trampled on, they just can't use government funds to trample on other peoples rights.

Speech doesn't trample on anyone's rights.  Denying right to speech tramples on people's rights.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #382 on: June 17, 2019, 02:27:28 pm »
Sure. You can be a member a party and not agree with parts of their platform.

Just know that the policy won't change.

Too be clear, JT using the abortion issue as a wedge is fear-mongering.

The courts have said voting and abortion are Constitutional rights that women have. 

Should a political party allow a person in who doesn’t want women to vote? 
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Offline Boges

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #384 on: June 17, 2019, 02:34:31 pm »
The courts have said voting and abortion are Constitutional rights that women have. 

Should a political party allow a person in who doesn’t want women to vote?

Sweet Moral Equivalency. Again a CPC government will not restrict the rights of women to have access to abortion. And through 9 years of Stephen Harper it's clear that they wont.

So now the Liberals want to keep the issue as a wedge by introducing people's personal view into it. Because Scheer won't ban people who don't believe in abortions he actually supports banning it, and will ban it.

And it's all or nothing. If you feel there should be some reasonable restrictions on abortion, you're just as bad as someone who won't allow abortion under any circumstances.

Pretty gross politics actually.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 02:42:12 pm by Boges »
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #385 on: June 17, 2019, 02:39:41 pm »
Speech doesn't trample on anyone's rights.  Denying right to speech tramples on people's rights.

Nobody is denying the right to speech, they are just saying you cannot use government funds. Anti-abortion activists however have a long history of trampling on other peoples rights. Instead of free speech, they are harassing women outside clinics.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #386 on: June 17, 2019, 02:42:04 pm »
Again a CPC government will not restrict the rights of women to have access to abortion. And through 9 years of Stephen Harper it's clear that they wont.

The Harper government has a terrible track record, removing funding from NGOs that provide women's reproductive services.



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Offline waldo

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #387 on: June 17, 2019, 02:48:05 pm »
If you feel there should be some reasonable restrictions on abortion, you're just as bad as someone who won't allow abortion under any circumstances.

I presume you're speaking to the late-term abortion strawman - yes? ... where you presume existing, for example, medical boards aren't capable of self-regulating this most rare circumstance. Rare - yes?

what other "reasonable restrictions" are you calling for?

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #388 on: June 17, 2019, 02:52:45 pm »
Nobody is denying the right to speech, they are just saying you cannot use government funds. Anti-abortion activists however have a long history of trampling on other peoples rights. Instead of free speech, they are harassing women outside clinics.

There's a big difference in speech/advocacy/protest and harassment.  I don't agree with harassment.  Government shouldn't fund harassment, they should be charging people who go over that line.
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Offline Boges

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #389 on: June 17, 2019, 03:00:45 pm »
I presume you're speaking to the late-term abortion strawman - yes? ... where you presume existing, for example, medical boards aren't capable of self-regulating this most rare circumstance. Rare - yes?

what other "reasonable restrictions" are you calling for?

I'm stating that if you believe there should be "ANY" restrictions you might as well believe Abortion should be banned outright.

It's such a black or white debate. 

I'm not calling for laws, it's not my place. I'm simply stating this whole naming and shaming of people that don't 100% tow the line on abortion is rather distasteful.
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