Author Topic: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?  (Read 26806 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #75 on: March 16, 2019, 11:34:05 pm »
As with most complex topics there are moronic arguments used by the both sides. Should I call people who support your pro-immigration stance uninformed morons because some people who support your pro-immigration stance are uninformed? Is that really the standard we should adopt?

The fact is there are harms caused by immigration and informed people understand the harms and the benefits and make a choice to balance the two based on their values. There is no easy right answer on this topic and it is dishonest to pretend there is one. Is also absurdly arrogant to assume that anyone who does not agree with you must be uninformed.

The "easy right answer" is that immigration has contributed to Canada's success throughout it's history and will continue to do so, especially since we are not having babies as fast as we are dying. Not to say there have been any problems from time to time, but xenophobia will hurt us a lot more.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2019, 11:44:36 pm »
The "easy right answer" is that immigration has contributed to Canada's success throughout it's history and will continue to do so, especially since we are not having babies as fast as we are dying. Not to say there have been any problems from time to time, but xenophobia will hurt us a lot more.
As any financial product prospectus says: Past Performance Is Not Indicative Of Future Results.

BTW: one of the most idiotic argument made by the pro-immigration side is that immigration helps with our demographic issues. It doesn't - especially given the mix of immigrants we allow which includes a lot of elderly parents which add to the burden. At best it is short term band aid that is unsustainable over the long run.

I guess we can put you down as an 'uninformed' advocate.

Offline Omni

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2019, 11:54:34 pm »
As any financial product prospectus says: Past Performance Is Not Indicative Of Future Results.

BTW: one of the most idiotic argument made by the pro-immigration side is that immigration helps with our demographic issues. It doesn't - especially given the mix of immigrants we allow which includes a lot of elderly parents which add to the burden. At best it is short term band aid that is unsustainable over the long run.

I guess we can put you down as an 'uninformed' advocate.

I'll make it simple: Canadians get old and they get the OAP, CPP, and maybe GIS, when they are done working. Where does that money come from? It comes from taxes paid by younger people who are still workers. Now since we aren't having babies to become those younger workers, we need to get them elsewhere, and that's where immigration comes in. And your suggestion that immigrants are all a bunch of old people who don't contribute is simply wrong, and demonstrates who is uninformed on the issue.

 https://globalnews.ca/news/4211243/immigration-canadian-economy/

In addition to supporting economic activity across the country, bringing in young, working-age immigrants also helps address the issue of Canada’s aging population. The report states that in a Canada where immigration was abandoned entirely, 26.9 per cent of the population would be 65 and over by 2040. In addition, Canada’s potential economic growth would slow from 1.9 per cent to an average of 1.3 per cent annually without immigration.

Offline TimG

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #78 on: March 17, 2019, 12:03:47 am »
It comes from taxes paid by younger people who are still workers.
Uninformed nonsense that probably comes from reading too many trolls on the Internet.

A paper from the C.D. Howe institute.
https://spon.ca/higher-immigration-cannot-keep-canada-young/2018/03/13/

Quote
The key message from the simulations is that changes in immigration levels have impacts on the margin only: no increase within the realm of practicality can prevent population aging. Other policies to ease the demographic transition, notably encouraging people to work longer, are at least as powerful – and, further, would complement changes to immigration policy by improving Canada’s attractiveness to people willing and able to contribute to the Canadian economy.

Offline Omni

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #79 on: March 17, 2019, 12:19:08 am »
Uninformed nonsense that probably comes from reading too many trolls on the Internet.

A paper from the C.D. Howe institute.
https://spon.ca/higher-immigration-cannot-keep-canada-young/2018/03/13/

Perhaps you didn't read the site you posted very well. It concludes similar projections as to what I have listed.
It simply suggests that we need a combination of immigration and for people to retire later. OK, you can work until you drop if you like, just to keep those durn foreigners out.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 12:22:26 am by Omni »

Offline TimG

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #80 on: March 17, 2019, 12:29:31 am »
Perhaps you didn't read the site you posted very well. It concludes similar projections as to what I have listed.
No it doesn't. It states unequivocally that immigration is not going to solve the problems caused by aging population. It tries to dress that conclusion up with pro-immigration commentary and suggests polices that don't actually require immigration to implement such as an increased working age.

There are good pro-immigration arguments. The argument that it will address demographic problems is nonsense. So is the argument that it will increase GDP (it does but if per capita GDP goes down we will be much better off with a lower total GDP).

Offline waldo

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #81 on: March 17, 2019, 01:52:45 am »
This thread is about Scheer and not our immigration policy, because that will cause a bomb of thread drift that we can talk about in one of the immigration threads here.


Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #82 on: March 17, 2019, 09:59:54 am »
As with most complex topics there are moronic arguments used by the both sides. Should I call people who support your pro-immigration stance uninformed morons because some people who support your pro-immigration stance are uninformed? Is that really the standard we should adopt?

Well, you could but it's not in the same arena of stupidity as saying, for example, Trudeau secretly converted to Islam which is why we have border crossers.  The article you posted on aging population is a great example of an immigration argument that people quote incorrectly but a lot more difficult to understand.

Aaand... there is the fact that the GDP is widely thought to need to GROW... which is the ultimate argument for immigration.  To argue against that is pretty unorthodox economics although some submit that.  And it goes against immigration aims of the business community including banks and those who hire immigrants to suit their goals.

Quote
The fact is there are harms caused by immigration and informed people understand the harms and the benefits and make a choice to balance the two based on their values. There is no easy right answer on this topic and it is dishonest to pretend there is one. Is also absurdly arrogant to assume that anyone who does not agree with you must be uninformed.

Absolutely - there is no 'right argument'.  I never meant to imply that anti-immigration views necessarily mean being uninformed.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #83 on: March 17, 2019, 10:46:20 am »
Aaand... there is the fact that the GDP is widely thought to need to GROW... which is the ultimate argument for immigration.  To argue against that is pretty unorthodox economics although some submit that.  And it goes against immigration aims of the business community including banks and those who hire immigrants to suit their goals.
The business community thinks about their bottom line and more people means more customers which means higher profits. In the short term they are not wrong. The trouble with the GDP growth argument is it ignores the GDP per capita question which is much more important because it measures the ability for governments to keep up with the demand for services created by the new people. If GDP per capita drops then governments will be less able to pay for promised services and immigration will leave us further behind. Of course, GDP per capita has generally risen with population so the historical record gives reason to be optimistic. OTOH, the ability to increase GDP per capita depends on greatly increasing the productivity of each citizen which is hard to do in our modern society if we are bringing in a lot of immigrants that cannot read or speak English or French. So there is no reason to assume that past trends will continue on into the future.

Offline Omni

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #84 on: March 17, 2019, 12:20:24 pm »
The business community thinks about their bottom line and more people means more customers which means higher profits. In the short term they are not wrong. The trouble with the GDP growth argument is it ignores the GDP per capita question which is much more important because it measures the ability for governments to keep up with the demand for services created by the new people. If GDP per capita drops then governments will be less able to pay for promised services and immigration will leave us further behind. Of course, GDP per capita has generally risen with population so the historical record gives reason to be optimistic. OTOH, the ability to increase GDP per capita depends on greatly increasing the productivity of each citizen which is hard to do in our modern society if we are bringing in a lot of immigrants that cannot read or speak English or French. So there is no reason to assume that past trends will continue on into the future.

Well if you bothered to look at the actual stats you would see we don't bring in a lot of illiterates, but actually over 60% are economic class, which means they have skill sets which allow them to enter the work force. Then there are around 26% who are family class, where the family member sponsoring must be able to sponsor. And then the remainder are "other" and of course refugees. The latter group has increased somewhat due to those fleeing the horrors that Assad has created in Syria. And once again, there is the reality that Canadians are getting older and not having babies. You want your government pension and maybe a little healthcare later on, better have somebody punching a time clock somewhere.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #85 on: March 17, 2019, 12:56:55 pm »
Most are completely uninformed.

You live in Waterhen, Manitoba.  Are you informed about it? Because i doubt immigration has affected you or others in your area much if at all, and your exposure to immigrants at least in your area (and nearby Winnipeg) is extremely limited according to demographic stats.

But alas we shouldn't take about this here, it will start a major drift.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:11:12 pm by Chesty Boobies Graham »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #86 on: March 17, 2019, 12:59:45 pm »
Fear of people who are different is what's driving this attitude, coupled with misinformation put out about benefits that immigrants and refugees receive.  I'll be arrogant in the face of that, yeah.

There's some of that, but it's far more complex than that.
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Offline JMT

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #87 on: March 17, 2019, 01:22:35 pm »
You live in Waterhen, Manitoba.  Are you informed about it? Because i doubt immigration has affected you or others in your area much if at all, and your exposure to immigrants at least in your area (and nearby Winnipeg) is extremely limited according to demographic stats.

But alas we shouldn't take about this here, it will start a major drift.

A - I don't care about thread drift.  Like I said that, isn't a thing here.

B - I lived in Winnipeg for 4 years.  I am a minority as a white in the area that I live in.  I have traveled the world extensively, and I have seen the statistics and endorsements.  Immigrants are less likely to commit crimes and tend to be more educated than native born Canadians.  Refugees are a totally different thing, and we are obligated to receive them, and I'm proud that we do.  People with brown skim simply don't scare me.
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Offline waldo

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #88 on: March 17, 2019, 01:33:26 pm »
A - I don't care about thread drift.  Like I said that, isn't a thing here.

whether here... or "there", you court the purposeful thread drift done to add cover over well-researched, well-written, on-topic points of discussion/argument... with a sole intent of quickly burying "inconvenient" critique while driving it deeper from current page(s). Over at the shyte-hole, the waldo took to re-posting the purposely buried which, of course, resulted in multiple suspensions - cause the azz-hole could!

Offline JMT

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Re: Just Who is the CPC Leader - Andrew Scheer?
« Reply #89 on: March 17, 2019, 01:38:00 pm »
whether here... or "there", you court the purposeful thread drift done to add cover over well-researched, well-written, on-topic points of discussion/argument... with a sole intent of quickly burying "inconvenient" critique while driving it deeper from current page(s). Over at the shyte-hole, the waldo took to re-posting the purposely buried which, of course, resulted in multiple suspensions - cause the azz-hole could!

I'm afraid you're going to have to translate that into English for me.  I haven't been 'there' in over 2 years.