Author Topic: Harper thinks he's important...  (Read 1327 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2018, 12:35:58 pm »
I'm not convinced having the respect of the likes of Trump is a positive thing.

Offline Mr. Perfect

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2018, 12:37:31 pm »
Realistically, who would you think would be more likely to negotiate a reasonable agreement with the Trump administration? Justin Trudeau or Stephen Harper? And at least they respect Harper.

Let's put aside the fact that you seem to think Trudeau is personally negotiating a new NAFTA...  You seriously think the problem is that Canada has been poor at negotiating a deal?

Have you forgotten that the leader of the USA is an unhinged narcissist who barely has 2 brain cells to rub together?  Do you think China has poor negotiators?   All of western Europe has poor negotiators?  By your theory, the only country who has a decent negotiating team is Russia! 

I don't think I'm going out on a limb here in thinking the problem is that the USA has become a rogue state when it comes to trade.  Thinking it's "Trudeau's fault" is partisan nonsense.
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Offline MH

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2018, 12:42:16 pm »
Realistically, who would you think would be more likely to negotiate a reasonable agreement with the Trump administration? Justin Trudeau or Stephen Harper? And at least they respect Harper.

Neither one of them are the sole negotiators and I will bet Trudeau is more than willing to follow what an expert tells him.

Offline MH

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2018, 12:43:30 pm »
Squid articulates the arguments I forgot to.

Let's just concur that #45 is 100% behind this.

Offline Omni

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2018, 12:43:41 pm »
I don't recall it being Trudeau who started this trade war.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2018, 12:45:01 pm »
Let's put aside the fact that you seem to think Trudeau is personally negotiating a new NAFTA...  You seriously think the problem is that Canada has been poor at negotiating a deal?

The problem is not the negotiators - on either side. The problem is Trump. It's all down to Trump's bleating, which itself is governed by his own childish narcissism and emotional immaturity. And since he knows nothing except what someone he trusts tells him, you need to persuade those he trusts. And it helps if he and they respect you. He clearly does not respect 'Justin', who he probably thinks of as something like the office boys who do chores for him. Bolton certainly would hold Trudeau's world views in contempt, and I doubt Kudrow thinks much of him either. Both these men would respect Harper, and thus be more easily persuaded by him.

Clearly Harper can't make any promises from Canada's perspective. But it's the Americans who need to be more accommodating, not us. And I think he stands a better chance of arranging that than Mr. Selfie. Hey, it probably won't make much difference but I honestly don't see how it can hurt.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline Omni

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2018, 12:54:54 pm »
The problem is not the negotiators - on either side. The problem is Trump. It's all down to Trump's bleating, which itself is governed by his own childish narcissism and emotional immaturity. And since he knows nothing except what someone he trusts tells him, you need to persuade those he trusts. And it helps if he and they respect you. He clearly does not respect 'Justin', who he probably thinks of as something like the office boys who do chores for him. Bolton certainly would hold Trudeau's world views in contempt, and I doubt Kudrow thinks much of him either. Both these men would respect Harper, and thus be more easily persuaded by him.

Clearly Harper can't make any promises from Canada's perspective. But it's the Americans who need to be more accommodating, not us. And I think he stands a better chance of arranging that than Mr. Selfie. Hey, it probably won't make much difference but I honestly don't see how it can hurt.

Obviously if Harper is in fact heading south to do some kind of negotiating he would have had much better optics if he would have discussed doing so with the man who currently has the power to sign agreements with foreign governments. All he's done so far is muddy the waters.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2018, 01:08:52 pm »
Obviously if Harper is in fact heading south to do some kind of negotiating he would have had much better optics if he would have discussed doing so with the man who currently has the power to sign agreements with foreign governments. All he's done so far is muddy the waters.

If he is seen as acting on Trudeau's behalf than all the disrespect the administration holds for Trudeau will inevitably affect their dealings with him. This way he's seen as an independent voice of reason.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline Omni

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2018, 01:19:58 pm »
If he is seen as acting on Trudeau's behalf than all the disrespect the administration holds for Trudeau will inevitably affect their dealings with him. This way he's seen as an independent voice of reason.

Maybe by you, but I doubt by the general population, who I venture to guess simply see him as an oaf barging in where he doesn't belong.

Offline wilber

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2018, 02:20:44 pm »
I actually think Harper could be a positive influence but not taking an approach co-ordinated with the government is a mistake. We don't want to come across as divided because the Americans will just exploit that, just as we are trying to exploit their divisions on trade issues.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2018, 02:37:35 pm »
I actually think Harper could be a positive influence but not taking an approach co-ordinated with the government is a mistake. We don't want to come across as divided because the Americans will just exploit that, just as we are trying to exploit their divisions on trade issues.

Agree on both counts. Harper's term in office could certainly have given him insights into ways to approach such issues as NAFTA, but the better way to approach it would be to have contacted the PMO, (I'm sure he has the #) discussed his idea's with JT, set aside their differences and hammered out a concerted approach to present to Trump. I'm sure Trump will pounce on the apparent discord we seem to be seeing.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2018, 04:13:09 pm »
Maybe by you, but I doubt by the general population, who I venture to guess simply see him as an oaf barging in where he doesn't belong.

The 'general population' has never seen Harper as an oaf. They've seen him as ruthless.
On the other hand, an awful lot of the general population see Trudeau as a dimwitted fool.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline Omni

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2018, 04:19:45 pm »
The 'general population' has never seen Harper as an oaf. They've seen him as ruthless.
On the other hand, an awful lot of the general population see Trudeau as a dimwitted fool.

Is that why they voted Harper out and Trudeau in? With a majority.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2018, 12:47:41 pm »
Is that why they voted Harper out and Trudeau in? With a majority.

The voted Harper out because they were tired of years of incessant coverage of him and his government being 'mean', and because Trudeau promised them billions in free stuff, and because the oil price drop caused sudden anxiety about the economy which translated into less confidence for the government.

Not because they thought Trudeau was smart.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Harper thinks he's important...
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2018, 12:50:44 pm »
Not because they thought Trudeau was smart.

Perhaps they watched the leaders debates where they got first hand evidence.