Author Topic: Government Day-to-Day  (Read 13173 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #930 on: November 24, 2020, 08:36:11 pm »
Because we have a functioning, stable democracy.

Fine, you aren't interested in electoral reform so you are fine with Trudeau breaking his promise. Got it.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3457
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #931 on: November 24, 2020, 09:59:14 pm »
Fine, you aren't interested in electoral reform so you are fine with Trudeau breaking his promise. Got it.

Yeah, I already said that. I prefer STV, but I'm in no rush to get there.

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #932 on: November 24, 2020, 10:35:36 pm »
Yeah, I already said that. I prefer STV, but I'm in no rush to get there.

No you don’t. You don’t care if you ever get there.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #933 on: November 25, 2020, 09:14:50 am »
It’s ironic. Conservatives are supposed to be afraid of change but the most vocal opponents of electoral reform on this forum are also the most vocal Liberal supporters.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3457
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #934 on: November 25, 2020, 09:32:01 am »
It’s ironic. Conservatives are supposed to be afraid of change but the most vocal opponents of electoral reform on this forum are also the most vocal Liberal supporters.


Anyone who is actually liberal (not Liberal) doesn't consider me a liberal.  I am extremely conservative when it comes to our form of government.

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4804
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #935 on: November 25, 2020, 11:27:03 am »
It’s ironic. Conservatives are supposed to be afraid of change but the most vocal opponents of electoral reform on this forum are also the most vocal Liberal supporters.

ya ya, Harper/weakAndy/O'Tool... such vocal Conservative proponents of electoral reform - NOT! Here's a lil' gem statement from the (now) leader of the CPC:

Quote from: current leader of the CPC, O'Tool
Electoral Reform Could Come At The Cost Of Our National Unity --- Will Canada's Parliament see more regional or secessionist parties under proportional representation? Will we see more single-issue parties based on social or cultural issues? Will a move to PR virtually guarantee that the Bloc Québécois never fades away like single-issue parties of the past? Under a PR electoral system the answer is "likely yes" to all of these questions.

your false/fake outrage was highlighted with your country name-dropping and the bigTime fails you displayed by your lack of understanding of the electoral systems in Australia, Germany & New Zealand! And again, you kept touting the 2 B.C. referendums while ignoring the fact past election results have shown B.C. has had highly proportional governments elected... I gave you the numbers and challenged you to counter them - and after some time later, you still haven't, so the waldo accepts you can't. Most pointedly you ignore/downplay that PR type electoral systems have typically resulted in minority type governments; where known/recognized problems with PR electoral systems have been profiled (like, again, failed coalitions and fringe party dominance).

it was heelarious to read you pressing the waldo with your 100% nattering... while you were quite content to accept a low-bar of 60% of those voting in the B.C. referendum - which couldn't even be met in both referendums run over the years. Not 60% of the eligible voters... just 60% of those that even bothered with the referendum; where, again, the summary review consensus is that a significant number of those voting YES didn't even understand the change alternative being put forward - hence the oft written summary of the referendum(s) as, "one that was short on specifics and that few understood."

you kept nattering on about a national referendum being the 'endAll - beAll'... but apparently you've finally accepted government by referendum is a failing principle. So now, your latest shift has you wanting some "Citizen Assembly" type group to put forward an alternative for the HOC to vote on!  ;D

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #936 on: November 25, 2020, 11:30:40 am »
Consider someone like Trump as PM with a 39% majority and the power of political life and death over everyone in the caucus.

FPTP is about gaining and keeping power, not about democracy.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #937 on: November 25, 2020, 11:37:06 am »

Anyone who is actually liberal (not Liberal) doesn't consider me a liberal.  I am extremely conservative when it comes to our form of government.

Considering you wouldn't even want parliament to vote on a proposal from an unbiased source, I couldn't agree more.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4804
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #938 on: November 25, 2020, 11:56:19 am »
Consider someone like Trump as PM with a 39% majority and the power of political life and death over everyone in the caucus.

does going to an extreme help your crusade?  ;D

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #939 on: November 25, 2020, 11:57:44 am »
does going to an extreme help your crusade?  ;D


Look at the US. Look at the UK today.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Montgomery

  • The Box
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 724
  • Location: vancouver Island
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #940 on: November 25, 2020, 12:07:24 pm »

Look at the US. Look at the UK today.

And look at Canada where democracy is functioning better than in any other country in the world. Or look at the other nine of the top ten democracies in the world that are pretty close to Canada's positioning on the political spectrum.

I'm giving you a chance wilbur, don't blow it.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.
Winner Winner x 1 View List

Offline waldo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4804
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #941 on: November 25, 2020, 12:12:08 pm »
Considering you wouldn't even want parliament to vote on a proposal from an unbiased source, I couldn't agree more.

again, heelarious! Since you've repeatedly touted that B.C. Citizen Assembly as 'independent, unbiased', let the waldo further burst your bubble:

Quote
Criticisms regarding its design and operation: Random selection of members was meant to make the body representative of the public at large, but citizens were not obliged to participate, as they are in legal juries. Instead, they were free to decline, so it is likely that many of the members who accepted were more active and civic-minded than the population at large. Participating in the Assembly might also have been more appealing to reformists than to those who were satisfied with the status quo. The selection process insured equal representation by geography, gender, and age group, but not ethnicity, aboriginal status, or socio-economic status. If the selection criteria granted equal representation to men and women, why should it not also ensure that also the voices of disadvantaged groups or of citizens of specific ethnic origin be represented? Finally, it remains unclear whether members felt they were representing their personal views, their districts, what emerged from the hearings, or the province at large. Would the Assembly have made different decisions with different selection mechanisms and notions of representation?

In terms of equality of the deliberations, inevitably, some members spoke more than others, with interventions from men outnumbering those of women or minorities. Although the chair encouraged first-time speakers to engage, more formal inclusion rules could have levelled the playing field for all participants.

Other critics suspect that the process of deliberation was consciously or unconsciously steered by staff. Members composed neither the structure of the Assembly’s deliberations, its timing, nor its agenda. Staff decisions regarding these factors, as well as the educational materials and the selection of experts who spoke to Assembly members, may have biased their deliberations. Additionally, members had no choice over the priorities of reform, but were restricted by their mandate to focus solely on the electoral law, neglecting other important elements, such as electoral districts, or campaign finance.

The deliberation phase was particularly complicated because the Assembly mandate required that the different options that had been explored in previous phases had to be narrowed down and eventually coalesce into one proposal. The process of selecting the desirable characteristics of a model, for example, was hastened and issues such as women representation received less attention than some wished. The group ended up selecting the three characteristics that were at the top of the lecturer’s list of desirable features of electoral models. Similarly, it was unclear whether the Assembly had the authority to modify the number of electoral districts and the number of parliamentary seats, which would have been required to adopt the MMP system. The Assembly chair clarified that the number of seats could not be altered, which might have prompted members to select the STV system because it required less change. It appears that more time was devoted to illustrating the STV system, while the technical details of applying the MMP model to British Columbia were left unexplored. The tension between exploring options and reaching consensus around a model emerged during the deliberation phase, and it remains unclear whether members would have favored the MMP system had they had more time to work through its complexities.

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #942 on: November 25, 2020, 12:42:27 pm »
And look at Canada where democracy is functioning better than in any other country in the world. Or look at the other nine of the top ten democracies in the world that are pretty close to Canada's positioning on the political spectrum.

I'm giving you a chance wilbur, don't blow it.

Just look at them. Almost all of them have some sort of PR.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7423
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #943 on: November 25, 2020, 12:50:05 pm »
Apparently Canadians are smart enough to avoid making someone like Trump PM with a 39% majority, but too stupid to have anything other than a FPTP electoral system.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Montgomery

  • The Box
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 724
  • Location: vancouver Island
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #944 on: November 25, 2020, 01:00:04 pm »
Just look at them. Almost all of them have some sort of PR.

Canada is #1 and it doesn't, as well the majority of the world's countries don't.

I'm not opposed to PR. I'm just opposed to it as long as we have a well functioning democracy but would be for it if there was a threat from the right to destroy our system.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.