Author Topic: Government Day-to-Day  (Read 13160 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #900 on: November 23, 2020, 08:38:46 pm »
I give him a little more credit than that. I just think he was too stupid to realize it was a dumb promise at the time.

It wasn't stupid at all, it was very smart and it was calculated. There is no reason at all that he couldn't pursue it. He made the opposition an offer they couldn't accept and used it as an excuse to quit. He had his majority and that's all that mattered.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
Agree Agree x 1 Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3457
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #901 on: November 23, 2020, 08:39:29 pm »
How generous of you. I really don't think you care as long as the Liberals stay in power.

I actually hope for a proper Progressive Conservative party in the future.

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #902 on: November 23, 2020, 08:40:59 pm »


I'm not in a hurry because I see real problems with PR in Canada. Most of the countries that do well with PR tend to be homogenous and small. Canada is vast and disparate.

So we finally get the truth, you never wanted STV at all.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #903 on: November 23, 2020, 08:41:33 pm »
I actually hope for a proper Progressive Conservative party in the future.
So do I but that has nothing to do with PR.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3457
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #904 on: November 23, 2020, 08:44:34 pm »
So we finally get the truth, you never wanted STV at all.

STV isn't PR.

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #905 on: November 23, 2020, 08:50:48 pm »
STV isn't PR.

It's a form of PR because every vote counts. I don't think you believe in electoral reform any more than Trudeau.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3457
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #906 on: November 23, 2020, 09:46:04 pm »
It's a form of PR because every vote counts. I don't think you believe in electoral reform any more than Trudeau.

It's not a form of PR. It's a different way of tabulating votes. I would love STV. I'm back and forth on PR.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6206
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #907 on: November 23, 2020, 09:53:06 pm »
I'm certainly not alone in that opinion.

Most people of that opinion are elitists who are simply scared of giving political power to actual citizens and would rather political power stay in the hands of their chosen elites because they think they'll vote for the policies they like.  Of course JT wouldn't want a referendum, it takes control out of his hands and the MP majority he has that he whips.  Guys like him and Harper are control freaks.

Ever since Brexit we've seen tons of articles, including academic ones, from globalist elitists spinning referendums as bad because for one of the few times in the last 40 years things didn't go their way and they freaked out, so ya let's now undermine their legitimacy.  ::)  What a bunch of tyrants.

From all your comments on the US system and the Canadian system, the JWR scandal, and now referendums, it's very clear that you care more about your chosen party/ideology having power than actual democracy.  You're a tyrant pretending to be something else, whether this is subconscious bias or straight up dishonestly or a bit of both.

If you look at history, the main point of representative democracy is to keep control among the elites while giving the populace a say once every few years to massage their need to think they have some kind of control.  Women, blacks/ethnic minorities, low income earners, people who didn't own property, have all been excluded from voting in the past, including in Canada.  In the last 500 years i've never seen a political system where the people had control, even in Communism which was supposed to be equality for the working class the elites kept a dictatorship and stole money from the people to live rich.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3457
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #908 on: November 23, 2020, 10:19:43 pm »
Most people of that opinion are elitists who are simply scared of giving political power to actual citizens and would rather political power stay in the hands of their chosen elites because they think they'll vote for the policies they like.  Of course JT wouldn't want a referendum, it takes control out of his hands and the MP majority he has that he whips.  Guys like him and Harper are control freaks.

We all watched the citizens of the UK jump off a cliff. We almost watched the citizens of Quebec do the same thing. We elect representatives to make difficult decisions that we (well, you anyway) don't always understand.

Quote
Ever since Brexit we've seen tons of articles, including academic ones, from globalist elitists spinning referendums as bad because for one of the few times in the last 40 years things didn't go their way and they freaked out, so ya let's now undermine their legitimacy.  ::)  What a bunch of tyrants.

Also, it was a bad move that cost the UK in more ways than it could ever gain.

Quote
From all your comments on the US system and the Canadian system, the JWR scandal, and now referendums, it's very clear that you care more about your chosen party/ideology having power than actual democracy.  You're a tyrant pretending to be something else, whether this is subconscious bias or straight up dishonestly or a bit of both.

Please, tell me more about me. I voted for the Harper Conservatives in 2008 because I thought that the Liberals were a bad choice. I supported the coalition in 2008, because the Conservatives were lying about our system of government. I was glad it collapsed, because Dion was a weak leader. I thought the Liberals and the other opposition parties overreached with their holding the Conservatives in contempt of parliament. I voted NDP in 2011, despite supporting Harper, because Conservatives are mean spirited bigots. I went into the 2015 campaign thinking Justin Trudeau was an idiot, and planning to support the Mulcair NDP. I supported the Manitoba PCs in 2016, despite being an NDP supporter because I felt the NDP were out of ideas, and it was time for a change and was unable to support any party in 2019, because they all sucked (that was a whoops on my part given the COVID death count). I supported the Liberals for reelection in 2019, because they were (by far) the best choice.

That I tend to lean very centrist (making me often a Liberal) and I have had more direct exposure to government and it's internal workings than you. I'm not jaded or naïve about government or humanity. Yes, I tend to sympathize with the party in power, because they have the difficult decisions to make. Yes, I cut them, no matter the party, a lot of slack because they're all only human.

Quote
If you look at history, the main point of representative democracy is to keep control among the elites while giving the populace a say once every few years to massage their need to think they have some kind of control.  Women, blacks/ethnic minorities, low income earners, people who didn't own property, have all been excluded from voting in the past, including in Canada.


Which is precisely why we have protections and rights that the public don't get a vote on. Tyranny of the majority is no better than what you accuse me of.

You and I may disagree on issues. That's fine. That said, you can take your reading of me, and shove it right up your ass.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 10:21:20 pm by JMT »

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #909 on: November 23, 2020, 11:10:56 pm »
Wow, the people aren't even allowed to choose the system they use to elect their governments. It doesn't get much more elitist than that.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #910 on: November 23, 2020, 11:36:47 pm »
Who does government serve, the people or itself?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8560
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #911 on: November 24, 2020, 12:08:31 am »
Who does government serve, the people or itself?

They must obviously serve the concepts they suggest they stand for whilst seeking our vote, or they get thrown out next go around. I understand that is an over wishful thinking version of things, but at least it's democracy and we have the power to mark that X
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3457
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #912 on: November 24, 2020, 12:29:42 am »
Who does government serve, the people or itself?

People generally get into government because they feel that they have something to offer. Sometimes they’re wrong.

The people themselves are often not properly educated on the nuance of something to make a good choice...hence our current terrible provincial governments and Brexit. Sometimes the best way to serve the people is by telling them they’re wrong - hence the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Democracy by referenda is tyranny with a different name.
Disagree Disagree x 1 View List

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #913 on: November 24, 2020, 09:02:58 am »
People generally get into government because they feel that they have something to offer. Sometimes they’re wrong.

The people themselves are often not properly educated on the nuance of something to make a good choice...hence our current terrible provincial governments and Brexit. Sometimes the best way to serve the people is by telling them they’re wrong - hence the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Democracy by referenda is tyranny with a different name.

So if the riff raff are too stupid to even choose how their governments are formed  why even have elections? Why not just have an autocracy where they don’t have to think at all. If that had always been the case, there would never have been such a thing as democracy in the first place? Why on earth do you think it would be a good idea to leave it up to two parties with a vested interest in the status quo to come up with any kind of electoral reform. They will always look after their own interests first.

You have been conning us JMT, you have no interest in electoral reform.

PS Switzerland has both PR and direct democracy through referendums. Oh the horror!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 09:14:20 am by wilber »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
Like Like x 1 View List

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3457
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #914 on: November 24, 2020, 11:04:49 am »
PS Switzerland has both PR and direct democracy through referendums. Oh the horror!

California also has direct democracy. It's been a huge burden that has made California nearly ungovernable.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 11:28:24 am by JMT »
Agree Agree x 1 View List