Author Topic: Government Day-to-Day  (Read 13444 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #885 on: November 23, 2020, 07:01:34 pm »
When you are changing the voting system, it would be pretty crass to push through your preferred solution (STV = Liberal governments forever) over the objections of the other major stakeholders. There was not even a path to compromise.

Total cop out.
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Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #886 on: November 23, 2020, 07:03:34 pm »
Total cop out.

So you say.

I don't actually prefer FPTP, but it is a democratic system, despite your claims. I'm not as in a hurry to push through a change.

Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #887 on: November 23, 2020, 07:05:55 pm »
I forgot my link. It sums up how I feel:

Yet most people do not buy those arguments. Polls and referendums consistently show that, notwithstanding its flaws, the FPTP system is considered valuable and that only a minority of voters want it changed. Various surveys also clearly show that Canadians want any proposals to be put to a popular vote.

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The Canadian electoral system is far from perfect, but it has been robust, has served the people well most of the time and has preserved its legitimacy. It has created a system that is competitive federally, provincially and intergovernmentally. There is no doubt that many feel as though their votes do not count. This can be addressed with some creativity without throwing overboard a system that has delivered accountability and a consistent alternance of power. Governments with majorities know that their support can be liquidated by a fickle Canadian public. The Canadian voting system is predictably unpredictable, and voters like it that way. Turns out the Liberals can live with it, too.

https://reviewcanada.ca/magazine/2017/05/why-trudeau-abandoned-electoral-reform/

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #888 on: November 23, 2020, 07:06:32 pm »
And housing price inflation seems to be completely decoupled from wages (which have pretty much flatlined since the mid 1970s.) I agree more needs to be done to make housing affordable and accessible which is why I think you need a full suite of reforms including some kind of UBI, but not a uBI alone.

Yes wages have only really risen with inflation, but household income has increased because of the big increase in dual-income households over the decades.  Much of that money from the second income has gone into housing bidding, and now a single income family with the parent earning an average income can't afford a middle class lifestyle anymore.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #889 on: November 23, 2020, 07:14:10 pm »
I forgot my link. It sums up how I feel:

https://reviewcanada.ca/magazine/2017/05/why-trudeau-abandoned-electoral-reform/

From that link:

It was incontestably part of the Liberal platform in 2015. Liberal leader Justin Trudeau solemnly pledged to change the electoral system so that the next election, presumably in 2019, would be decided by a new way to count votes. The Special Committee on Electoral Reform was created in the spring of 2016, and it delivered its report in December. It proposed two things. The first was that Canada replace its traditional system of voting (the ­single-member plurality system known widely as the first-past-the-post model) with a proportional system of representation (where seats in the House of Commons would be allocated according to the proportion of votes each party received). Second, it recommended that the idea be put to a referendum.

Both notions were poisonous to the Liberals, and Trudeau abandoned the commitment. For one, he had consistently said that he did not want to go to the people. That position was surprising, since British Columbia had done it twice, as had Ontario and Prince Edward Island. (The United Kingdom, New Zealand and the Australian Capital Territory also put their electoral reforms to the people.) Prince Edward Island even held a second referendum in October 2016 while the issue was being debated in Ottawa.

Just as importantly, the Liberals certainly did not want a proportional system. It was never clear what Trudeau expected. There were indications that he was favourable to the idea of ranked ballots—the system whereby voters choose their favourites in descending order. It took little time for experts to predict, using past results and some imagination, that under such a system the Liberals would be guaranteed a place in government forever. It was a non-starter for the majority of non-Liberals on the committee.
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Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #890 on: November 23, 2020, 07:17:40 pm »
From that link:

It was incontestably part of the Liberal platform in 2015. Liberal leader Justin Trudeau solemnly pledged to change the electoral system so that the next election, presumably in 2019, would be decided by a new way to count votes. The Special Committee on Electoral Reform was created in the spring of 2016, and it delivered its report in December. It proposed two things. The first was that Canada replace its traditional system of voting (the ­single-member plurality system known widely as the first-past-the-post model) with a proportional system of representation (where seats in the House of Commons would be allocated according to the proportion of votes each party received). Second, it recommended that the idea be put to a referendum.

Both notions were poisonous to the Liberals, and Trudeau abandoned the commitment. For one, he had consistently said that he did not want to go to the people. That position was surprising, since British Columbia had done it twice, as had Ontario and Prince Edward Island. (The United Kingdom, New Zealand and the Australian Capital Territory also put their electoral reforms to the people.) Prince Edward Island even held a second referendum in October 2016 while the issue was being debated in Ottawa.

Just as importantly, the Liberals certainly did not want a proportional system. It was never clear what Trudeau expected. There were indications that he was favourable to the idea of ranked ballots—the system whereby voters choose their favourites in descending order. It took little time for experts to predict, using past results and some imagination, that under such a system the Liberals would be guaranteed a place in government forever. It was a non-starter for the majority of non-Liberals on the committee.


I'm in total agreement with that. I find referenda to be ironically undemocratic in a representative democracy.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #891 on: November 23, 2020, 07:35:49 pm »
So you say.

I don't actually prefer FPTP, but it is a democratic system, despite your claims. I'm not as in a hurry to push through a change.

It is and it doesn't matter what you or I prefer. Trudeau made a commitment to his supporters and he reneged on it.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #892 on: November 23, 2020, 07:39:07 pm »
So you say.

I don't actually prefer FPTP, but it is a democratic system, despite your claims. I'm not as in a hurry to push through a change.

You rightly had an problem with the US system where 46% of the vote got 100% of the power in 2016, you also had a problem with the Senate and SCOTUS, but you think Canada has a democratic system when 39% of the vote gets 100% of the power, including not only the executive but the House of Commons?

Of course you're not in a hurry, and neither was Trudeau, because the party you both support is in power and is most of the time.  At least someone like Shady wears their partisan biases on their sleeve.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #893 on: November 23, 2020, 07:39:37 pm »
I'm in total agreement with that. I find referenda to be ironically undemocratic in a representative democracy.

Wow. 
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #894 on: November 23, 2020, 08:14:00 pm »
It is and it doesn't matter what you or I prefer. Trudeau made a commitment to his supporters and he reneged on it.

Trudeau kept over 90% of his promises in whole or in part during his first term. I view this promise among the naïve ones that shouldn't have been made.

Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #895 on: November 23, 2020, 08:14:21 pm »
Wow.

I'm certainly not alone in that opinion.

Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #896 on: November 23, 2020, 08:16:36 pm »
You rightly had an problem with the US system where 46% of the vote got 100% of the power in 2016, you also had a problem with the Senate and SCOTUS, but you think Canada has a democratic system when 39% of the vote gets 100% of the power, including not only the executive but the House of Commons?

I would argue that voting for a head of state is very different than voting for a head of government. I'd also argue against the notion that minority governments have limitless power.

Quote
Of course you're not in a hurry, and neither was Trudeau, because the party you both support is in power and is most of the time.  At least someone like Shady wears their partisan biases on their sleeve.

I'm not in a hurry because I see real problems with PR in Canada. Most of the countries that do well with PR tend to be homogenous and small. Canada is vast and disparate.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #897 on: November 23, 2020, 08:21:37 pm »
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Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #898 on: November 23, 2020, 08:32:11 pm »


I give him a little more credit than that. I just think he was too stupid to realize it was a dumb promise at the time.

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #899 on: November 23, 2020, 08:35:40 pm »
Trudeau kept over 90% of his promises in whole or in part during his first term. I view this promise among the naïve ones that shouldn't have been made.

How generous of you. I really don't think you care as long as the Liberals stay in power.
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