Author Topic: Government Day-to-Day  (Read 7078 times)

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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #840 on: November 22, 2020, 12:00:46 pm »
here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!

PR was only devised by losers asking the people to make them winners. And why change when Canada leads the world in 'quality of life' for it's people.

Better to let the pendulum swing the way it does now between the Libs and the Cons. The voting public make the small corrections required in time to prevent severe damage.

And fwiw, there really isn't any Conservative agenda anymore. Only their very moderated policies have any chance of being adopted.

I can't even think of one of their proposals that could stir up any interest!

And none of the Con supporters seem to be able to propose anything? Even Gorgeous's signature is lost to them because of a moderated approach to his issue.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #841 on: November 22, 2020, 12:41:00 pm »
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring than say Australians, were voting is mandatory and STV means their vote has consequences regardless of how they voted. Maybe that is because of a system that hands absolute power to a party that gets less than 40% of the vote and they feel their vote doesnít mean all that much.

Face it, FPP isnít about democracy, itís about power and the party in power isnít going to allow a system that will reduce that power.

To be clear, the Liberals wanted STV, and could have pushed it through on their own. The Conservatives weren't in favour of a change, and the NDP wanted MMP. With no agreement and no movement, a change to STV, which I would have liked, would have been seen as totally disingenuous and self serving.

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #842 on: November 22, 2020, 12:59:47 pm »
To be clear, the Liberals wanted STV, and could have pushed it through on their own. The Conservatives weren't in favour of a change, and the NDP wanted MMP. With no agreement and no movement, a change to STV, which I would have liked, would have been seen as totally disingenuous and self serving.

What a monstrous, ingenuous cop out, using other parties as an excuse to break a promise that helped give you a majority.

At least put it to the people. If you are just going to tell people what kind of electoral system they are going to have, why have them vote at all.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #843 on: November 22, 2020, 01:03:53 pm »
At least put it to the people.

Why bother having representatives at all?

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #844 on: November 22, 2020, 01:13:11 pm »
Why bother having representatives at all?

Why have voters at all? A big piece of JT's platform in 2015 was PR. He didn't mean a word of it.

We have had PR referendums on the subject from both Liberal and NDP governments. Don't tell me Trudeau couldn't have done the same.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 01:14:53 pm by wilber »
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Offline JMT

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #845 on: November 22, 2020, 02:44:25 pm »
Why have voters at all? A big piece of JT's platform in 2015 was PR.

Right, and, it didn't work out. That happens in politics. If you're going to move forward on some kind of reform, I'd say you really need buy in from the stakeholders. It's also worth noting that it's hard to have a referendum on something that you're unable to come to any kind of agreement on. Look at the success rate for the provincial examples you cited.

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #846 on: November 22, 2020, 02:49:38 pm »
Right, and, it didn't work out. That happens in politics. If you're going to move forward on some kind of reform, I'd say you really need buy in from the stakeholders. It's also worth noting that it's hard to have a referendum on something that you're unable to come to any kind of agreement on. Look at the success rate for the provincial examples you cited.

What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

If the first BC referendum was done by the same rules as the last one, BC would have had PR for the last 15 years.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #847 on: November 22, 2020, 03:02:49 pm »
What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

If the first BC referendum was done by the same rules as the last one, BC would have had PR for the last 15 years.

Just as long as you keep failing to criticize the Liberals for anything specific wilbur, you're not serving any political purpose on this board for your Cons. Just more spamming and baying at the moon!
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #848 on: November 22, 2020, 03:04:24 pm »
What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

If the first BC referendum was done by the same rules as the last one, BC would have had PR for the last 15 years.
In Canada we seem to think the horse is more important than the wagon and contents that horse is pulling.  I'm guessing most of our democratic peers that succeeded in moving beyond FPTP did so by simply establishing the need to change and then left it up to experts instead of politicians to figure out how.

Clearly any question about switching should have a follow up question about whether we leave how up to politicians or experts.

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #849 on: November 22, 2020, 03:14:30 pm »
In Canada we seem to think the horse is more important than the wagon and contents that horse is pulling.  I'm guessing most of our democratic peers that succeeded in moving beyond FPTP did so by simply establishing the need to change and then left it up to experts instead of politicians to figure out how.

Clearly any question about switching should have a follow up question about whether we leave how up to politicians or experts.

New Zealand switched to PR through a referendum. Clearly they have a higher opinion of their ability to rule themselves than Canadians.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #850 on: November 22, 2020, 03:15:38 pm »
Just as long as you keep failing to criticize the Liberals for anything specific wilbur, you're not serving any political purpose on this board for your Cons. Just more spamming and baying at the moon!

I'm criticizing Trudeau for not following through on a commitment he had made to those who voted for his party.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline waldo

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #851 on: November 22, 2020, 03:19:51 pm »
here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring than say Australians, were voting is mandatory and STV means their vote has consequences regardless of how they voted. Maybe that is because of a system that hands absolute power to a party that gets less than 40% of the vote and they feel their vote doesnít mean all that much.

Face it, FPP isnít about democracy, itís about power and the party in power isnít going to allow a system that will reduce that power.

member wilber, since you're holding up Australia as the model for Canadians to follow:
=> Australia uses Alternative Vote (AV) for its House... Single Transferable Vote (STV) for its Senate. Accordingly, still following parts of the Westminster model, the Australian Prime Minister is selected by the controlling House party chosen by AV. Alternative Voting, sometimes referred to as 'ranked balloting' was said to be the preferred Liberal Party of Canada choice over FPTP.
=> member wilber, given this bonehead play of yours, do a bit of research and come back and advise why Australia still uses AV for its House... and STV for its 'sober second thought' Senate - yes?

as for the second emphasis I put forward... that you completely ignored... there's a past thread here where I provided key examples where your favoured PR has limitations/problems; again, as in failing coalitions and fringe party control. Don't make me search for it!  ;D
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #852 on: November 22, 2020, 03:22:33 pm »
I'm criticizing Trudeau for not following through on a commitment he had made to those who voted for his party.

Put it on your back burner wilbur and bring it up again when your Cons form government.

I can assure you that none of Trudeau's supporters are the least bit interested in sharing power with the Cons or any other backward thinking fascist regime's ideology.

Or in other words wilbur, STFU for a while unless you have some proposals for a Con agenda.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #853 on: November 22, 2020, 03:23:25 pm »
member wilber, since you're holding up Australia as the model for Canadians to follow:
=> Australia uses Alternative Vote (AV) for its House... Single Transferable Vote (STV) for its Senate. Accordingly, still following parts of the Westminster model, the Australian Prime Minister is selected by the controlling House party chosen by AV. Alternative Voting, sometimes referred to as 'ranked balloting' was said to be the preferred Liberal Party of Canada choice over FPTP.
=> member wilber, given this bonehead play of yours, do a bit of research and come back and advise why Australia still uses AV for its House... and STV for its 'sober second thought' Senate - yes?

as for the second emphasis I put forward... that you completely ignored... there's a past thread here where I provided key examples where your favoured PR has limitations/problems; again, as in failing coalitions and fringe party control. Don't make me search for it!  ;D
s

Of course you can find examples where PR has been fractious but you can find many more where it has been a success.  Canada is the only country on the world'e best ten list that is solely FPTP. In fact FPTP systems are a minority among developed countries.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 03:25:34 pm by wilber »
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Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #854 on: November 22, 2020, 03:24:59 pm »
Put it on your back burner wilbur and bring it up again when your Cons form government.

I can assure you that none of Trudeau's supporters are the least bit interested in sharing power with the Cons or any other backward thinking fascist regime's ideology.

Or in other words wilbur, STFU for a while unless you have some proposals for a Con agenda.

When did PR become a "Con" agenda or PR become "facist"?  Give me a break.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC