Author Topic: Government Day-to-Day  (Read 13300 times)

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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #765 on: November 12, 2020, 02:19:59 pm »
Automation is different.  If a person is able to work but genuinely can't find a job then I have no problem giving them benefits.  If there are jobs available but a healthy person refuses to work, you and I should not be paying for their income.  It's ridiculous. I would have no problem paying for them to be re-trained, and paying for their income while they are retraining.

Well that's very liberal of you! Do you think that could become an accepted talking point for the Conservative party?
I think it might have to be soon but I can't quite imagine how Alberta's Cons could ever go there? You see the problem?

So the proof is going to be in the pudding for anybody that isn't stuck in Conservative never-never land. Here's a hypothetical for you:

A person who was a machinist becomes unemployed and he turns to EI. He is offered a job as a labourer at half the rate of pay ($20) as he was earning and he refuses the job. You get the picture, you're too clever not to. Does that guy become one of your lazies?

Don't hang strictly on the hypothetical, that doesn't get us anywhere. Rather, consider variations to the general theme. So I'm suggesting that will be the point at which the Cons and the Libs could part ways

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The kinds of people who propose these programs are the same types of people who allow their unemployed adult children to live for free in their basement while mom cooks them dinner and does their laundry.  They think they're being kind, but it isn't good for anyone.  We should not be incentivizing people to become dependents of the state.

Each case will be different and therefore have variables and qualifications to consider. Here's on for you:

The kid doesn't need much money and he's getting social assistance, and that's paying better than the parttime job at MacD's flipping hamburgers. Oh, and his twin brother that lives in the same basement room has a mental illness problem.

Who sorts all this **** out Gorgeous, the social worker or the government?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #766 on: November 12, 2020, 03:03:45 pm »
Here's a hypothetical for you:

A person who was a machinist becomes unemployed and he turns to EI. He is offered a job as a labourer at half the rate of pay ($20) as he was earning and he refuses the job. You get the picture, you're too clever not to. Does that guy become one of your lazies?

I would say there could be a limited amount of time for the machinist to refuse jobs not in his field while not on EI.  2 or 3 months, or whenever the EI claim runs out?  I dunno.  After that limited period is over the machinist should then be expected to accept whatever jobs are available.  If the machinist were to stay on government income indefinitely that would mean many of the people who used to make good money working in manufacturing would now be stuck on government benefits.  This is terrible for the economy, both GDP and tax revenue/spending, and bad psychologically for the unemployed.

Think of it this way: Government always has only a certain amount of money budgeted to spend on social programs.  It would be far better to spend that money on the people who really need it, such as the homeless, poor communities/first nations, the sick etc than to give it to healthy people able to work but refuse.

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Each case will be different and therefore have variables and qualifications to consider. Here's on for you:

The kid doesn't need much money and he's getting social assistance, and that's paying better than the parttime job at MacD's flipping hamburgers. Oh, and his twin brother that lives in the same basement room has a mental illness problem.
As I said, if a person is healthy but unwilling to work when there are jobs available they should not expect an income from the government after transition benefits like EI run out.  The mentally ill brother is a different case, if they're disabled to the point where they can't work they should be entitled to disability income.

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Who sorts all this **** out Gorgeous, the social worker or the government?

Those are 2 very different jobs.  Entitlement to government benefits should be determined by government.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #767 on: November 12, 2020, 03:16:05 pm »
If a person is able to work but genuinely can't find a job then I have no problem giving them benefits.  If there are jobs available but a healthy person refuses to work, you and I should not be paying for their income.  It's ridiculous. 
I feel the same way about volunteers and the entitled slack-assed societies that depend on them. It's ridiculously hypocritical that any society or economy that demands people carry their own weight should also rely on $56 billion (for 2017 in Canada alone) worth of free labour.

https://volunteer.ca/vdemo/Campaigns_DOCS/Value%20of%20Volunteering%20in%20Canada%20Conf%20Board%20Final%20Report%20EN.pdf

Fire up the printing presses and screw the debt-cult's kool-aid.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #768 on: November 12, 2020, 03:19:27 pm »
I would say there could be a limited amount of time for the machinist to refuse jobs not in his field while not on EI.  2 or 3 months, or whenever the EI claim runs out?  I dunno.  After that limited period is over the machinist should then be expected to accept whatever jobs are available.  If the machinist were to stay on government income indefinitely that would mean many of the people who used to make good money working in manufacturing would now be stuck on government benefits.  This is terrible for the economy, both GDP and tax revenue/spending, and bad psychologically for the unemployed.

Think of it this way: Government always has only a certain amount of money budgeted to spend on social programs.  It would be far better to spend that money on the people who really need it, such as the homeless, poor communities/first nations, the sick etc than to give it to healthy people able to work but refuse.
As I said, if a person is healthy but unwilling to work when there are jobs available they should not expect an income from the government after transition benefits like EI run out.  The mentally ill brother is a different case, if they're disabled to the point where they can't work they should be entitled to disability income.

Those are 2 very different jobs.  Entitlement to government benefits should be determined by government.

All of which is true enough Gorgeous, but I think you're taking on an attitude of attempting to win a debate, as opposed to thinking it all through completely. That's the reason why you're hanging on the specifics rather than accept the bigger picture.

So the big picture is:

There aren't enough jobs to go around anymore.
and
Speaking of the US where the situation has advanced further along, there is enough money to make unemployment work if the very wealthy are taxed out of a portion of their billions. Or more appropriately, the very wealthy are restricted enough on their profit making that they never do get to owning billions.

So there we have it for the reality of the 21st. century, and it's coming soon. How soon? Well, it's already here in a smaller way.

And fwiw, the machinist is going to say fk them, I'm not going to dig a ditch. Then vote for the party that says he doesn't have to.

Can a country work within the capitalist system in which the wealth is spread around and restraints can be placed on one's ability to earn billions? Say, in the US where 3 top billionaires earn as much as 50% of the country's people? How Conservative would one have to be to accept that??
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #769 on: November 12, 2020, 03:23:31 pm »
I feel the same way about volunteers and the entitled slack-assed societies that depend on them. It's ridiculously hypocritical that any society or economy that demands people carry their own weight should also rely on $56 billion (for 2017 in Canada alone) worth of free labour.

https://volunteer.ca/vdemo/Campaigns_DOCS/Value%20of%20Volunteering%20in%20Canada%20Conf%20Board%20Final%20Report%20EN.pdf

Fire up the printing presses and screw the debt-cult's kool-aid.

You can figure this stuff out too eyeball, but you're tying your hands behind your back when you refer to people as 'entitled slack-assed.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #770 on: November 12, 2020, 05:09:34 pm »
All of which is true enough Gorgeous, but I think you're taking on an attitude of attempting to win a debate, as opposed to thinking it all through completely. That's the reason why you're hanging on the specifics rather than accept the bigger picture.

So the big picture is:

There aren't enough jobs to go around anymore.
and
Speaking of the US where the situation has advanced further along, there is enough money to make unemployment work if the very wealthy are taxed out of a portion of their billions. Or more appropriately, the very wealthy are restricted enough on their profit making that they never do get to owning billions.

So there we have it for the reality of the 21st. century, and it's coming soon. How soon? Well, it's already here in a smaller way.

And fwiw, the machinist is going to say fk them, I'm not going to dig a ditch. Then vote for the party that says he doesn't have to.

Can a country work within the capitalist system in which the wealth is spread around and restraints can be placed on one's ability to earn billions? Say, in the US where 3 top billionaires earn as much as 50% of the country's people? How Conservative would one have to be to accept that??

You're changing the subject and now talking about a hypothetical future where you're now able to employ some kind of socialist dream where people don't have to work.  There will obviously be some kind of transition period if/when automation explodes.  But that doesn't mean jobs will go away.  People predicted we wouldn't have to work or would have so much more free time after the industrial revolution and it didn't happen.  We really don't know what the future holds.

Having too much free time is and will be bad for people psychologically.  It's fun for a while but many people will get fat, lazy, and useless like a house cat that just sits around and sleeps all day.  Consider what boredom will do to statistics such as infidelity, depression, suicide, alcoholism/drug use, obesity/heart disease/diabetes.  Consider the divorce rate when couples are around each other far more.

People have been forced to get up in the morning and work to survive throughout the entirety of human history, as has virtually every animal organism (search for food, build shelter etc).  Taking that away will have unintended consequences.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #771 on: November 12, 2020, 05:50:55 pm »
You're changing the subject and now talking about a hypothetical future where you're now able to employ some kind of socialist dream where people don't have to work.  There will obviously be some kind of transition period if/when automation explodes.  But that doesn't mean jobs will go away. People predicted we wouldn't have to work or would have so much more free time after the industrial revolution and it didn't happen.  We really don't know what the future holds.

It sure did happen! Immediately following the industrial revolution and again it's happening in the age of electronics and the internet. You need to peruse some statistics on the numbers of people working parttime jobs in MacD's and maybe some research on how many Americans are on food stamps. So your argument is wrong. But in fairness, only wrong to some degree on which we aren't in agreement because we haven't talked on specifics yet.




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Having too much free time is and will be bad for people psychologically.  It's fun for a while but many people will get fat, lazy, and useless like a house cat that just sits around and sleeps all day.  Consider what boredom will do to statistics such as infidelity, depression, suicide, alcoholism/drug use, obesity/heart disease/diabetes.  Consider the divorce rate when couples are around each other far more.

All very true! All of those issues need to be considered.

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People have been forced to get up in the morning and work to survive throughout the entirety of human history, as has virtually every animal organism (search for food, build shelter etc).  Taking that away will have unintended consequences.

Yes, of course on the unintended consequences! But building a shelter and searching for food, as you've mentioned, aren't necessary anymore.

For the sake of it being interesting, tell me what the etc. is?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #772 on: November 12, 2020, 06:41:33 pm »
...you're tying your hands behind your back when you refer to people as 'entitled slack-assed.
I didn't. I referred to a society - an aggregate of people. Volunteers are a group within that aggregate.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #773 on: November 12, 2020, 07:05:38 pm »
I feel the same way about volunteers and the entitled slack-assed societies that depend on them.

Yeah ya did and that's because you think that way.

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an aggregate of people.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 07:09:04 pm by Montgomery »
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #774 on: November 12, 2020, 08:35:35 pm »
Yeah ya did and that's because you think that way.
Yes, that benefitting from the free labour of others is as ridiculous as what Graham said.


Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #775 on: November 13, 2020, 11:34:38 am »
Yes, that benefitting from the free labour of others is as ridiculous as what Graham said.

'free' labour is a new twist on the topic?
The bad feelings of rightists over allowing people to cut back on their working for a living has got to stop. There's just no way capitalism with no restrictions on big business profit can work for the millions. The way forward has to be in finding ways to spread the wealth at least enough for everyone to have the essentials in life.

Cuba actually does that already because they were forced into doing that which would allow them to merely survive. And now an objective look at how the people of Cuba have succeeded is instructive. Housing and high quality healthcare put an entirely different light on poverty!

They did it with very limited resources so just imagine what countries rich in resources can do!

Yes, we'll miss capitalism and the opportunity to work hard to better oneself, but new ways must be found.

A country doesn't get rich from the backbreaking work of it's workers anymore. Look at that harvester being driven by one man, that is producing enough food for thousands. A country gets rich off of  the labouring of it's machines.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #776 on: November 19, 2020, 02:30:14 pm »
You're changing the subject and now talking about a hypothetical future where you're now able to employ some kind of socialist dream where people don't have to work.  There will obviously be some kind of transition period if/when automation explodes.  But that doesn't mean jobs will go away.  People predicted we wouldn't have to work or would have so much more free time after the industrial revolution and it didn't happen.  We really don't know what the future holds.

Having too much free time is and will be bad for people psychologically.  It's fun for a while but many people will get fat, lazy, and useless like a house cat that just sits around and sleeps all day.  Consider what boredom will do to statistics such as infidelity, depression, suicide, alcoholism/drug use, obesity/heart disease/diabetes.  Consider the divorce rate when couples are around each other far more.

People have been forced to get up in the morning and work to survive throughout the entirety of human history, as has virtually every animal organism (search for food, build shelter etc).  Taking that away will have unintended consequences.

Why assume people will choose to do nothing if they don't have to work to survive as opposed to taking up hobbies, getting an education or doing jobs they actually want to do?
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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #777 on: November 19, 2020, 02:48:21 pm »
I have nothing but free time. I ride my bike, play piano, and doomscroll on the internet. A perfectly healthy balance, I figure.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #778 on: November 19, 2020, 03:10:42 pm »
I have nothing but free time. I ride my bike, play piano, and doomscroll on the internet. A perfectly healthy balance, I figure.

If I didn't have to work for a living I would probably be doing something useless like being a full time parent whereas now I pay someone a good chunk of my income to look after my kid so i can make money to pay them to look after my kid.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #779 on: November 19, 2020, 03:46:09 pm »
I have nothing but free time. I ride my bike, play piano, and doomscroll on the internet. A perfectly healthy balance, I figure.

I'm old enough to have that free time thing now too and I have two bikes I ride, one has pedals, the other a 750 cc two stroke, and I like to practice on my Larravee 6 string. My work took my to the far corners of the planet so I sometimes now sit in my living room looking at carvings and various other craft pieces and wonder,"now where the hell did I pick that up".