Author Topic: FPTP vs PR  (Read 311 times)

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2023, 07:38:36 pm »
CBC - Dec 2018: 3 strikes and you're out: Decisive referendum sounds death knell for electoral reform in B.C.
With most ridings rejecting change, it's hard to imagine any appetite for another vote anytime soon



I may not be as politically involved as some others on this forum but I’m definitely above average in my knowledge and understanding of our political systems. I had a difficult time on that referendum and its wording. I can imagine how the average voter would’ve felt.

Im convinced the whole thing was a farce meant to obfuscate.
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2023, 07:46:54 pm »
I think the premise on this thread is flawed because voting intentions are based within a framework of FPTP. Who knows how many Liberal voters would vote Green, or CPC would vote PPC if they believed it makes a difference in the grand scheme of things.

The fact that we get so many votes for ‘fringe’ parties just goes to show how many people are sick of the same two parties holding power.

I also agree with Queefer, who cares if fringe parties have a voice. If that’s what a certain percent of people want so be it. That’s more democratic and what we have now with parties ramming legislation through with 100% power even though they got <40% of votes.
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Offline wilber

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2023, 07:58:44 pm »
CBC - Dec 2018: 3 strikes and you're out: Decisive referendum sounds death knell for electoral reform in B.C.
With most ridings rejecting change, it's hard to imagine any appetite for another vote anytime soon


The first referendum was in 2005 and STV got 57.69% of the vote but the government had set the bar so high it couldn't pass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_British_Columbia_electoral_reform_referendum

The last referendum was designed to fail as three flawed options were given so none could get a majority. The BC NDP and Liberals don't believe in electoral reform for the same reason federal Liberal and Conservatives don't want it.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2023, 08:02:00 pm by wilber »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2023, 12:52:34 am »
The fact that we get so many votes for ‘fringe’ parties just goes to show how many people are sick of the same two parties holding power.

I'm confident unfortunately that every party would essentially behave the same in terms of corruption and ethics.  The rules of the system itself are the problem.  Not enough safeguards and oversight and not enough punishment for wrongdoing.  I think wealthy interests, whether foreign or domestic, have a significant influence on policy.

Party choice is good but it doesn't solve some of the fundamental issues.

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2023, 07:20:33 am »
What do you see as wrong with voter engagement?

I don't see major problems with the electoral math.  It will make fringe parties more powerful.  I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.  Probably both but probably for the worse.  New federal parties have been able to succeed in Canada if they have enough popular support.

I think there's far larger issues with our democracy than our electoral system.  I think we need to focus on corruption, ethics, and foreign interference as first priorities.

I also think the disappearance of moderate parties in this country is alarming.  The PC's are gone, the Liberals have gone full woke/politically correct.  We're run by a bunch of nutters.

The average level of voter engagement leads to an advertising model for selecting government.  It doesn't make sense.

The gap between the complexity of issues and the understanding of the average voter is massive and getting larger.  The actual decisions are not made in the light of democratic publics.


Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2023, 07:34:14 am »
Our federal elections are so much about personality and image.

They should break the discussions into a million online forums and get input from the people on topics that are important.

Importantly, there should be local discussions online and nominous.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2024, 12:08:30 pm »
Since the best form of government lies in the centre and governed by pragmatism rather than ideology, PR won't work.

The idea that centrism is the best and most pragmatic form of government and that you should mantain a patently unequal electoral system because it produces the outcomes you want is itself ideological.

Quote
Also, a majority government is far more preferable to an unstable minority. After one or two election cycles the current parties will fracture into smaller parties and governments will be subject to the whims of tiny radical parties made up of a half dozen MP's.

No reason to think this would be the case.

Quote
Also, it wouldn't work in the Canadian context because we do not have one Federal election rather, we have 338 individual elections.
So, how do you proportion the single seat for that riding among the three or four candidates running? What happens to the independent candidates like Jodi Wilson Raybould?

Ranked choice voting.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 02:58:28 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline queenmandy85

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2024, 03:14:59 pm »
Yes, ranked choice ballot is superior to PR and would work. That or run off elections in ridings where no candidate received 50% + 1 of the votes.

"The idea that centrism is the best and most pragmatic form of government and that you should mantain a patently unequal electoral system because it produces the outcomes you want is itself ideological."

The point is to get practical solutions.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2024, 03:55:15 pm »
Yes, ranked choice ballot is superior to PR and would work. That or run off elections in ridings where no candidate received 50% + 1 of the votes.

"The idea that centrism is the best and most pragmatic form of government and that you should mantain a patently unequal electoral system because it produces the outcomes you want is itself ideological."

The point is to get practical solutions.


The idea that "practical solutions" can only be found in the centre is bizarre to me.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2024, 12:06:26 pm »
Yes, ranked choice ballot is superior to PR and would work.
The problem I can see with Ranked Choice balloting is that when you have 3 main political parties, it gives too much of an advantage to the party in the "center" (in this case the Liberals), since most Conservative/NDP voters would consider the Liberals their second choice based on ideology.

Now, in theory that would not be a bad thing. But in practical terms, having one party become so dominant could possibly lead to significant corruption. (Witness the various scandals surrounding the Chretien government when the conservative opposition was split and Liberals had no real threat to their power.)

Offline queenmandy85

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2024, 05:51:44 pm »
The problem I can see with Ranked Choice balloting is that when you have 3 main political parties, it gives too much of an advantage to the party in the "center" (in this case the Liberals), since most Conservative/NDP voters would consider the Liberals their second choice based on ideology.

Now, in theory that would not be a bad thing. But in practical terms, having one party become so dominant could possibly lead to significant corruption. (Witness the various scandals surrounding the Chretien government when the conservative opposition was split and Liberals had no real threat to their power.)
Another way of looking at it would be that the party in the centre is the one most people can live with. As we are witnessing in the US under President Trump and in Canada with the Pearson government in the 1960's, corruption and scandals are not a deciding issue with voters. Neither is an absence of transparency. Generally, Canadians base their electoral decision on how long a government has been in office and is it time to throw the incumbents out. We don't elect governments in Canada. We defeat them.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2024, 06:22:20 pm »
Wouldn't ranked ballot give too many votes to fringe parties? If you really liked the Liberals you're not going to want to give your 2nd and 3rd votes to the competition like CPC and NDP for strategic reasons
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Offline queenmandy85

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Re: FPTP vs PR
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2024, 07:18:40 pm »
Wouldn't ranked ballot give too many votes to fringe parties? If you really liked the Liberals you're not going to want to give your 2nd and 3rd votes to the competition like CPC and NDP for strategic reasons
I guess that could happen. We should leave the party lables off the ballot. After all, we are electing a Member of Parliament, not a party. I still prefer FPTP but having run off elections in ridings where no candidate receives a majority would ensure the MP arrives in Parliament with a mandate from the majority of her constituants.
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