Author Topic: Government Day-to-Day  (Read 13996 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #810 on: November 20, 2020, 03:25:20 pm »
Monty obviously hasn't been to Shanghai and Beijing.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #811 on: November 20, 2020, 04:17:03 pm »
Monty obviously hasn't been to Shanghai and Beijing.

Maybe never left Vancouver Island.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #812 on: November 20, 2020, 04:26:03 pm »
People working for minimum wage do that now though...   Lots of people could do just as well on welfare but donít. They go to work for crappy wages....   gaining work experience to better themselves, making barely enough to eat and pay rent, and, if theyíre lucky, saving some coin.   

So I donít think the argument put forward by Wilber and Graham that if you give people enough money to barely stay alive that they will just not bother working holds any weight whatsoever.

The difference is all of those programs are means tested to some degree; universal basic income or whatever you wnat to call it would not be.



Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #813 on: November 20, 2020, 04:26:50 pm »
We already have too many people who won't take jobs that involve hard work for good wages. Most of the dairy farmers around here have resorted to TFW's because they can't get locals to do the work even though they are paying $20hr to start.

Anecdotes aren't evidence!

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #814 on: November 20, 2020, 04:30:02 pm »
Fascism? China?

No, capitalism within a communist system.

The principle is that communism has been able to provide the leadership in China that has elevated hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty. That fact isn't debated anymore.

Capitalism of the US sort ends in not being capable of providing for all the people. That can't be tolerable in the 21st. century unless military force can steal the resources of others to provide the necessities to a system that refuses to share the wealth.

Capitalism under a militaristic, chauvinistic, nationalist authoritarian kleptocratic power structure bent on expanding its sphere of influence beyond its borders? It certainly fits the bill of a fascist state closer than most others today.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #815 on: November 20, 2020, 04:32:18 pm »
Take a closer look at H.K. That's US style greedy capitalism trying to continue to exist within China's system of attempting to provide for all of the country's people.

Well, except the all the people they are putting in concentration camps or just disappearing for being the wrong ethnicity/religion or for criticizing the government.

Offline Mr. Perfect

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #816 on: November 20, 2020, 04:46:09 pm »
The difference is all of those programs are means tested to some degree; universal basic income or whatever you wnat to call it would not be.

Yeah, I get it...  above a certain level, it can simply be taxed back as people reach certain incomes...  Eliminates a massive amount of government bureaucracy administering literally dozens of kinds of these programs.

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #817 on: November 20, 2020, 05:00:00 pm »
Anecdotes aren't evidence!
Not anecdotes, these are people I know.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Online eyeball

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #818 on: November 20, 2020, 05:00:52 pm »
Which would cause wage inflation, which would then cause price inflation, and then the government would have to raise the guaranteed income level to match, and then we're back at square one.
Not according to modern monetary theory where the government creates money when stimulus is required and raise taxes when inflationary pressures build.  The main objection appears to be that politicians will fail to raise taxes when required.  The solution is to not leave too much of the power to resist doing so in their hands.  Make it more a function of the central bank. I.E. redistribute power instead of wealth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 05:11:08 pm by eyeball »

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #819 on: November 20, 2020, 05:03:29 pm »
Not according to modern monetary theory where the government creates money when stimulus is required and raise taxes when inflationary pressures build.  The main objection appears to be that politicians will fail to raise taxes when required.  The solution is to not leave too much of the power to resist doing so in their hands.  Make it more a function of the central bank. I.E. redistribute power instead of wealth.
Trudeau had planned to add almost 100 billion to the debt by 2024 before Covid was a thing.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Online eyeball

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #820 on: November 20, 2020, 05:09:45 pm »
You havenít needed to look at any data so far to form an opinion that itís a terrible idea....  why start now?

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots

Here's another basic income experiment.

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A Canadian charity recently conducted a bold social experiment: giving people experiencing homelessness a one-time cash infusion of $7,500.

According to the researchers, the results were "beautifully surprising."

Those who were given the cash largely spent the money on food, rent, and transportation and moved into stable housing faster over the course of the year, according to the findings. Spending on "temptation goods," such as drugs, cigarettes, and alcohol declined by 39%, on average. And recipients were able to keep an average of $1,000 in savings, according to Canadian news outlet CBC.

The cash payment saved the shelter system $8,100 per person over the course of the year, a total savings of $405,000.

https://www.businessinsider.com/canadian-basic-income-experiment-gives-homeless-people-cash-2020-10

Offline JMT

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #822 on: November 20, 2020, 09:00:32 pm »
Fascism? China?

No, capitalism within a communist system.

Communism is an economic system.  China no longer has a communist economic system, and it has vast income inequality.  China is fascist, look up the characteristics of fascism.

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The principle is that communism has been able to provide the leadership in China that has elevated hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty. That fact isn't debated anymore.

Communism didn't do that at all, it only happened when they abandoned communism.  They have a totalitarian government, which is not exclusive to communism.

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Capitalism of the US sort ends in not being capable of providing for all the people. That can't be tolerable in the 21st. century unless military force can steal the resources of others to provide the necessities to a system that refuses to share the wealth

As I said, China isn't communist, their wealth isn't at all spread evenly, and China has high income inequality about equally high as the USA.  Canada has better income equality than China:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #823 on: November 20, 2020, 09:12:53 pm »
Except there's little evidence higher wages lead to higher prices.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wage-push-inflation.asp

"Economists track wages closely because of their wage push inflation effects. Wage push inflation has an inflationary spiral effect that occurs when wages are increased and businesses must ó to pay the higher wages ó charge more for their products and/or services. Additionally, any wage increase that occurs will increase the money supply of consumers. With a higher money supply, consumers have more spending power, so the demand for goods increases. An increase in demand for goods then increases the price of goods in the broader market. Companies charge more for their goods to pay higher wages, and the higher wages also increase the price of goods in the broader market."
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Online eyeball

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #824 on: November 20, 2020, 11:35:38 pm »
Trudeau had planned to add almost 100 billion to the debt by 2024 before Covid was a thing.
Like I said lets try redistributing a little power and see what happens.  I've been thinking the idea of building back better should include reforming a good chunk of how we govern ourselves.  Of all the **** poor things underscored in the wake of COVID that have left us exposed and vulnerable I'd say governance tops the list.
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