Author Topic: Government Day-to-Day  (Read 13996 times)

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #780 on: November 19, 2020, 07:03:09 pm »
Why assume people will choose to do nothing if they don't have to work to survive as opposed to taking up hobbies, getting an education or doing jobs they actually want to do?

Some people will do healthy things and some people with do unhealthy things with their time.  If those people are employed they're not able to sit around and do nothing.

There's downsides to working and to not working.  IMO the downsides to not working for society as a whole should not be underestimated.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #781 on: November 20, 2020, 09:17:23 am »
Some people will do healthy things and some people with do unhealthy things with their time. If those people are employed they're not able to sit around and do nothing.

There's downsides to working and to not working.  IMO the downsides to not working for society as a whole should not be underestimated.

Nor should the downsides of a system that forces people to kill themselves slowly for scraps from the master's table.

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #782 on: November 20, 2020, 09:32:32 am »
Nor should the downsides of a system that forces people to kill themselves slowly for scraps from the master's table.

Sometimes stuff just needs to get done and someone has to do it.

But I guess we can just hire TFWs to do the crappiest essential jobs.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 09:34:34 am by wilber »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #783 on: November 20, 2020, 10:21:40 am »
Sometimes stuff just needs to get done and someone has to do it.

But I guess we can just hire TFWs to do the crappiest essential jobs.

Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #784 on: November 20, 2020, 11:34:09 am »
Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.

A UBI needs to come from somewhere and the very wealthy are the only ones with the ability to pay for it.  In the US, it shouldn't be a problem finding the money. Three of the top billionaires make as much as the bottom 50% of their people.

Automation has eliminated probably about half the jobs that existed in the 50's and consequently, half the people are unemployed.

Unemployed in the sense that they are working at part time jobs, two or more part time jobs, or not working and earning money at all.

Unemployment figures have been a joke for many years. And of course there are enough people to do any work that needs doing. But finding somebody to do them in the land of the gun isn't as easy.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #785 on: November 20, 2020, 11:52:29 am »
Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.

The point is, we all need those people doing the shitty jobs to survive ourselves, whether it is janitors, garbage collectors, the people who work in food processing plants and a thousand other things. so we are the masters throwing the scraps. This idea that we can all just collect a salary and just do the jobs that appeal to us is pie in the sky nonsense. There may be a case for an income supplement but there is none for an income replacement. We already have that with EI, disability pensions and welfare.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #786 on: November 20, 2020, 12:27:36 pm »
The point is, we all need those people doing the shitty jobs to survive ourselves, whether it is janitors,.....................

The point is, you seem to nearly always miss the point. Saying nothing is better than making up **** that nobody is confused over.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #787 on: November 20, 2020, 01:17:38 pm »
Nor should the downsides of a system that forces people to kill themselves slowly for scraps from the master's table.

Nobody is forced to do anything.  If you don't like the masters scraps then open your own business and be your own master.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #788 on: November 20, 2020, 01:24:35 pm »
The point is, we all need those people doing the shitty jobs to survive ourselves, whether it is janitors, garbage collectors, the people who work in food processing plants and a thousand other things. so we are the masters throwing the scraps. This idea that we can all just collect a salary and just do the jobs that appeal to us is pie in the sky nonsense. There may be a case for an income supplement but there is none for an income replacement. We already have that with EI, disability pensions and welfare.

Literally no one is proposing an income replacement, so if that's what your objections are based on, then they aren't based on anything.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #789 on: November 20, 2020, 01:26:33 pm »
Nobody is forced to do anything.  If you don't like the masters scraps then open your own business and be your own master.

Oh for sure dude, because starting a businesses is easy and cheap and a surefire license to print money. That's why so many businesses *checks notes* fail within the first 3 to 5 years.

But here's the thing: more people would be willing and able to take the risk of starting their own businesses if they were guaranteed an income supplement to cushion them should they fail.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 01:28:08 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #790 on: November 20, 2020, 01:28:20 pm »
Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.

I see what you're saying but this gets tricky because of the market for wages which works off supply and demand of the workforce.  If the government starts subsidizing lower wage jobs it gives companies more of an excuse to keep those wages low and passes it onto the taxpayer.

People deserve a liveable wage but we also need to make sure it doesn't have unintended consequences in other areas of the market and becomes counterproductive.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #791 on: November 20, 2020, 01:30:32 pm »
I see what you're saying but this gets tricky because of the market for wages which works off supply and demand of the workforce.  If the government starts subsidizing lower wage jobs it gives companies more of an excuse to keep those wages low and passes it onto the taxpayer.

People deserve a liveable wage but we also need to make sure it doesn't have unintended consequences in other areas of the market and becomes counterproductive.

On the contrary, an income supplement means businesses would have to compete on wages with the government.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #792 on: November 20, 2020, 01:39:18 pm »
Quote from: Black Dog link=topic=919.msg69555#msg69555 date=1605900 393
Oh for sure dude, because starting a businesses is easy and cheap and a surefire license to print money. That's why so many businesses *checks notes* fail within the first 3 to 5 years.

But here's the thing: more people would be willing and able to take the risk of starting their own businesses if they were guaranteed an income supplement to cushion them should they fail.

Nothing ventured nothing gained.  If you don't want the risk then there's zero-risk wage jobs everywhere waiting for you.

Why do you need a guaranteed income supplement if your business fails?  Just go apply for a job.  You can also choose to buy into income protection insurance as a self-employed person. I also know employers can claim certain EI benefits like sickness.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #793 on: November 20, 2020, 01:40:32 pm »
On the contrary, an income supplement means businesses would have to compete on wages with the government.

Not sure why if the supplement is universal. It's not like we never see cases of companies raising their prices when products are subsidized by government.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #794 on: November 20, 2020, 01:41:59 pm »
On the contrary, an income supplement means businesses would have to compete on wages with the government.

Which would cause wage inflation, which would then cause price inflation, and then the government would have to raise the guaranteed income level to match, and then we're back at square one.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.