Author Topic: Government Day-to-Day  (Read 7449 times)

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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #735 on: October 28, 2020, 01:27:40 pm »
White lies now and then are ok.  You can expect most people to lie now and then.  Politicians lie more than the vast majority of people in professions, and they aren't white lies, they seek to deceive constantly because many they have poor ethics.  Everything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.  The vast majority are in it for themselves and for their own power-seeking first and foremost.

Many mechanics lie, but I found one that doesn't.   His rates are higher, but he saves me far more in the unnecessary work he tells me I don't need to do.

The democratic system forces politicians to lie. Yet it's still the best we've been able to come up with so far.

Or is it? Has China come up with something better that doesn't require politicians to lie?

Or maybe it's not of the utmost importance that politicians are forced to lie?

For one good example, many bright politicians are atheists but they have to lie about it and pretend they are Christians.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #736 on: October 28, 2020, 01:58:58 pm »
The democratic system forces politicians to lie. Yet it's still the best we've been able to come up with so far.

Or maybe it's not of the utmost importance that politicians are forced to lie?

For one good example, many bright politicians are atheists but they have to lie about it and pretend they are Christians.

It doesn't force people to lie, but it does reward lying.

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Or is it? Has China come up with something better that doesn't require politicians to lie?

The Chinese government lies constantly, it's all propaganda.  There's no consequences for being caught lying in a totalitarian gov.  China's system is effective in their development, but is also horrifically repressive.  Other countries like South Korea have shown that yes you need a strong centralized government to develop and guide the economy (not least in order to repel outside forces that wish to exploit), but it doesn't have to be tyrannical at the level of China.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Online wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #737 on: October 28, 2020, 02:03:13 pm »
I'm saying that we have to be realistic in our expectations.

You are saying we should accept it with no consequences for doing it. It's the same as saying we might as well let people steal because they will do it anyway. Of course they will if there are no consequences.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #738 on: October 28, 2020, 03:20:26 pm »
It doesn't force people to lie, but it does reward lying.

The Chinese government lies constantly, it's all propaganda.  There's no consequences for being caught lying in a totalitarian gov.  China's system is effective in their development, but is also horrifically repressive.  Other countries like South Korea have shown that yes you need a strong centralized government to develop and guide the economy (not least in order to repel outside forces that wish to exploit), but it doesn't have to be tyrannical at the level of China.

China is actively practicing the only system that can possibly work for a nation that has to care for the needs of a billion and a half people. Remember that they have performed a true miracle by elevating hundreds of millions of their people up out of poverty. And maybe stop forgetting that Gorgeous!

the heads of dissenters must roll for the greater good.

Or at least they will roll if the dissenters don't fall into line with the system.

We're not there yet in Canada but America is close to being there. But then you know that already!
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Online wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #739 on: November 05, 2020, 03:20:31 pm »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #740 on: November 10, 2020, 11:46:47 am »
It doesn't force people to lie, but it does reward lying.

The Chinese government lies constantly, it's all propaganda.  There's no consequences for being caught lying in a totalitarian gov.  China's system is effective in their development, but is also horrifically repressive.  Other countries like South Korea have shown that yes you need a strong centralized government to develop and guide the economy (not least in order to repel outside forces that wish to exploit), but it doesn't have to be tyrannical at the level of China.

We'll have to do a lot more work on this issue Gorgeous but for now I'll just state my position as being that China does no more than is necessary to put down foreign and outside influence than it deems necessary. And in China's case with a billion and a half mouths to feed, more is necessary.

There's no way China can tolerate what's going on in H.K. with US and UK interference to incite rioting and violence. But they are tolerating it for the short term at least.

China is going to be faced with huge challenges to it's sovereignty as it rises to the top. This will call for huge expansion of it's military defenses. The US is determined to translate that to the world as China's military aggression. It's just not so and a large part of the world know it's not so.

When will China make Cuba the elephant in the room, as a counter measure to US military expansionist measures in S.K?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.
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Online wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #741 on: November 10, 2020, 01:22:14 pm »
Interesting article on Covid spending.

This economist thinks too much money ends up going to support goods produced in other countries rather than home grown services.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-s-virus-spending-is-leaking-to-other-nations-economist-1.1520315
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #742 on: November 10, 2020, 01:36:19 pm »
We'll have to do a lot more work on this issue Gorgeous but for now I'll just state my position as being that China does no more than is necessary to put down foreign and outside influence than it deems necessary. And in China's case with a billion and a half mouths to feed, more is necessary.

China has squashed domestic influence by jailing and genociding Muslim minorities inside the country.  They don't do that to feed mouths.  They do it so the Han Chinese of the country have unquestioned power and control over everything.

China won't be any less ruthless to outsiders to the point that they can get away with it.  Don't underestimate their ruthlessness.  The CPC aren't the humanitarians you claim they are, and they won't stop projecting their power ruthlessly even after all mouths are fed.

The CPC are ultra-nationalists that make Trump look like Gandhi.  The difference between the CPC and the Nazis is Germany didn't have 1.4 billion people they could draft in a heartbeat.  China isn't stupid, they won't project military power recklessly, not until their economy has their tentacles wrapped around most of the international economy.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #743 on: November 10, 2020, 01:37:56 pm »
Interesting article on Covid spending.

This economist thinks too much money ends up going to support goods produced in other countries rather than home grown services.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-s-virus-spending-is-leaking-to-other-nations-economist-1.1520315

That seems unavoidable.  You give people money they're going to go to Walmart and buy Cheerios.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #744 on: November 10, 2020, 02:39:20 pm »
I always find your posts worthwhile reading Gorgeous. You have something to say that deserves consideration, even though I may not agree with you all the time.
Stay the course! it's not often anyone dow on this sort of exchange of ideas.

China has squashed domestic influence by jailing and genociding Muslim minorities inside the country.  They don't do that to feed mouths.  They do it so the Han Chinese of the country have unquestioned power and control over everything.

I think you are painting with too broad a brush when you talk about Muslim minorities being persecuted in China. I would suggest that China reacts against individual Muslims to at least the same degree as do American law enforcement. The proof is in the updding of a closer examination of the facts, but the facts must not be biased and tarnished facts as related by some authority that claims China as the enemy.

Peronally, I justify persecution of China's foes within for the large part and I haven't been shy about saying so. That being with necessary consideration of human rights limitations. I truly believe that China has embarked on the only form of government that can carry a very large nation forward in this 21st. century. It is in stark contrast to the obvious failure of the US system of greedy capitalism.

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China won't be any less ruthless to outsiders to the point that they can get away with it.  Don't underestimate their ruthlessness.  The CPC aren't the humanitarians you claim they are, and they won't stop projecting their power ruthlessly even after all mouths are fed.

China getting away with ruthlessness needs to be somehow connected to a reason for such behaviour. I reject any other reason that has been proposed by the US or any others. And so China's reaction to it's perceived enemies within needs to be tempered to the punishment suiting the crime. I haven't heard of any specific examples of it not being so, keeping in mind that treasonous activity by any individual or group of individuals is deserving of the death sentence. If an American has treasonous activities on their minds, they better not try it in China or N.K. either for that matter.

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The CPC are ultra-nationalists that make Trump look like Gandhi.

In what sense? Can you expand on that assertion?
Can there be any doubt that China has performed an humanitarian miracle by elevating hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty? Can this somehow be discounted as just 'for the good of the state', as opposed to being for the good of the people?

 
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The difference between the CPC and the Nazis is Germany didn't have 1.4 billion people they could draft in a heartbeat.


Quite true but needing a proper perspective due to the fact that you're comparing modern day China with Nazi Germany 80+ years ago. And manpower as in boots on the ground is not a major factor in a future world war. For example, the US destroyed and conquered Iraq with human losses that were insignificant in number.

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China isn't stupid, they won't project military power recklessly, not until their economy has their tentacles wrapped around most of the international economy.

And so you're telling me that it's your concerns about China that 'might be', sometime in the future, as opposed to legitimate concerns about what China is now as an aggressor nation.

The world, excepting Nato countries, sees China as a peaceful and legitimate contender for the position of the world's  leading power. Taking into consideration the M.A.D. factor, China has no other possible course than it's current course of economic domination through peaceful means.

This does perhaps leave China open to accusations of economic warfare.
I'm ready with a defense of China in that respect too.

But really, I'm much more into exploring further the issue of China's human rights abuses as you envision that to be. My opening position is that China has been justified in it's behavour as pertains to human rights. both for it's own people as well as outsiders.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 02:44:04 pm by Montgomery »
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Online the_squid

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #745 on: November 10, 2020, 03:11:19 pm »
Interesting article on Covid spending.

This economist thinks too much money ends up going to support goods produced in other countries rather than home grown services.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-s-virus-spending-is-leaking-to-other-nations-economist-1.1520315

Itís a laudable goal, I suppose, but completely unrealistic, and possibly dangerous.

Encourage restaurants?  During a pandemic?  Thatís just a bad idea all-around.  Of course service industries get hurt when going out might mean getting a deadly disease.  And weíve seen Vancouver need to tighten up restrictions considerably.  There is going to be even less money spent on service industries now...  and for very god reason.


Wilber, how many times do you eat out now compared to before COVID? 


Online wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #746 on: November 10, 2020, 04:39:47 pm »
That seems unavoidable.  You give people money they're going to go to Walmart and buy Cheerios.

That's still money spent in Canada for goods that are probably made in Canada. I was thinking more on the line of buying foreign made goods on Amazon which does just about zero for the Canadian economy. I don't know how much of this is happening or if it is even an issue but it is something which government should be considering when they come up with these programs. Sending money to seniors who made so much a portion of their OAS is being clawed back was one example of poor oversight. They would have to know who is collecting OAS to send out the cheques in the first place, identifying people who are having it clawed back shouldn't have been that difficult.

Spending a few bucks so restaurants can maybe stay in business is a better idea than adding to Jeff Bezos billions.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 05:13:46 pm by wilber »
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #747 on: November 10, 2020, 05:44:20 pm »
That's still money spent in Canada for goods that are probably made in Canada. I was thinking more on the line of buying foreign made goods on Amazon which does just about zero for the Canadian economy. I don't know how much of this is happening or if it is even an issue but it is something which government should be considering when they come up with these programs. Sending money to seniors who made so much a portion of their OAS is being clawed back was one example of poor oversight. They would have to know who is collecting OAS to send out the cheques in the first place, identifying people who are having it clawed back shouldn't have been that difficult.

Spending a few bucks so restaurants can maybe stay in business is a better idea than adding to Jeff Bezos billions.

I don't understand how you'd control how people spend their money, other than giving them something else other than money, which wouldn't really work.  I get your sentiment I just don't see a solution.
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Online wilber

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #748 on: November 10, 2020, 07:15:39 pm »
I don't understand how you'd control how people spend their money, other than giving them something else other than money, which wouldn't really work.  I get your sentiment I just don't see a solution.

You can prioritize the distribution of funds differently.
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Online the_squid

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Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #749 on: November 10, 2020, 08:00:37 pm »
You can prioritize the distribution of funds differently.

If you're getting CERB, lost your job...  you're going to spend it the necessities. 

If you still have a job, you're saving a whole bunch of money not eating out and you're not getting COVID.  Maybe you spend your money on a watch, or some shit on Amazon.  But you still aren't going out, since you want to avoid COVID. 

Sorry...  I think that economist isn't dealing with a full deck if he thinks we should be encouraging people to do riskier things.
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