Author Topic: Government Day-to-Day  (Read 10370 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline eyeball

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1500 on: December 24, 2020, 05:07:11 pm »
I respect your consistency.
It's about freakin' time after 10 years at least of having it shoved in your face. So now that I finally have your respect what do you make of a lefty who would embargo a communist dictatorship?

Take your time and if it takes another 10 years...then it is what it is.
Winner Winner x 1 View List

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5571
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1501 on: December 25, 2020, 01:32:29 pm »
It's about freakin' time after 10 years at least of having it shoved in your face. So now that I finally have your respect what do you make of a lefty who would embargo a communist dictatorship?

Take your time and if it takes another 10 years...then it is what it is.

If we were to embargo trade with countries with human rights problems we'd be embargo'ing the large majority of the world, including the US and ourselves.

On the other hand, sanctions are a legitimate tool in managing international relations.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
Agree Agree x 1 Winner Winner x 1 View List

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3317
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1502 on: December 25, 2020, 02:04:43 pm »
If we were to embargo trade with countries with human rights problems we'd be embargo'ing the large majority of the world, including the US and ourselves.

On the other hand, sanctions are a legitimate tool in managing international relations.

Agreed. What has the embargo done for the Cuban people? What has it changed for the positive? Nothing.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5571
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1503 on: December 25, 2020, 05:57:13 pm »
Agreed. What has the embargo done for the Cuban people? What has it changed for the positive? Nothing.

I get the embargo in the 60's and maybe even throughout the Cold War.  I also get Cuba wanting nukes to defend themselves after the Bay of Pigs invasion.  I think relations should be normalized.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

guest78

  • Guest
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1504 on: December 25, 2020, 07:40:50 pm »
It's about freakin' time after 10 years at least of having it shoved in your face. So now that I finally have your respect what do you make of a lefty who would embargo a communist dictatorship?

Take your time and if it takes another 10 years...then it is what it is.
I said I admired it.  I didnít say I agreed with it.   Using a blanket standard for every country in the world is counter productive.  China and Cuba are not the same.

Offline eyeball

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1505 on: December 26, 2020, 12:09:14 am »
I said I admired it.  I didnít say I agreed with it.   Using a blanket standard for every country in the world is counter productive.
Groovy. That's got absolutely nothing to do with using anything on dictatorships.   

Quote
China and Cuba are not the same.
That's right, they're different countries on opposite sides of the planet.

If you want to suggest that differences amongst dictatorships call for using different standards to bring them to heel then say so.  I'm open to the idea that governments can earn merit points and a reduction in sanctions due to better behaviour.  First though we'd need an international code of standardized rules for governing human beings.  Wouldn't you agree? 

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6575
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1506 on: December 27, 2020, 09:14:59 am »
Basic human rights should be universal but dictating how other people must govern themselves is something else.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
Agree Agree x 2 View List

Offline eyeball

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1507 on: December 27, 2020, 11:06:07 am »
Basic human rights should be universal but dictating how other people must govern themselves is something else.
It's more a matter of dictating how people are not allowed to govern themselves, which is in the absence of basic universal human rights.

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6575
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1508 on: December 27, 2020, 12:09:51 pm »
It's more a matter of dictating how people are not allowed to govern themselves, which is in the absence of basic universal human rights.

Pretty much. Regardless of what people may think of the Cuban regime, the revolution that put it in place overthrew a brutal and corrupt dictatorship.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

guest78

  • Guest
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1509 on: December 29, 2020, 08:48:03 am »
Groovy. That's got absolutely nothing to do with using anything on dictatorships.   
That's right, they're different countries on opposite sides of the planet.

If you want to suggest that differences amongst dictatorships call for using different standards to bring them to heel then say so.  I'm open to the idea that governments can earn merit points and a reduction in sanctions due to better behaviour.  First though we'd need an international code of standardized rules for governing human beings.  Wouldn't you agree?
Well, Cuba's been under a large trade embargo for 50+ years.  And all it's done is caused mass poverty.  Your policy has directly lead to people dying.  As long as you're ok with the collateral damage I guess. 
Funny Funny x 1 View List

Offline eyeball

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1510 on: December 29, 2020, 11:44:04 am »
Well, Cuba's been under a large trade embargo for 50+ years.  And all it's done is caused mass poverty.  Your policy has directly lead to people dying.  As long as you're ok with the collateral damage I guess.
Cuba's dictators have also been subsidized by other dictators, to the tune of billions of dollars in the case of China. That's both prolonged Cuba's dictatorship while fuelling China's growth into a formidable super-power.  Anyone else recall when billions of dollars and countless lives were expended trying to keep oil out of the hands of communist dictatorships?  Last time I looked Ottawa spent billions on a pipeline in our desperation to get our oil into China's hands too.

Quote
China has bailed-out Cuba with loans of billions of dollars, and as a result has access to much of their oil in the Gulf of Mexico.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Cuba_relations

When we investigate terrorists we deliberately look for often find and go after the networks of support that facilitate and empower them.  It works the very same way with dictatorships but we give the support they receive a pass, why?  We've come to depend on them too.  Decades of dependency have made us as complicit and even more so because we know better.

I'm okay with the economic damage being consistent with our stated principles would cause why aren't you?  My grandparents were okay giving up 25% of their GDP to fight tyranny, where were your's in the scheme of things?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 11:54:22 am by eyeball »

guest78

  • Guest
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1511 on: December 29, 2020, 12:21:26 pm »
Cuba's dictators have also been subsidized by other dictators, to the tune of billions of dollars in the case of China. That's both prolonged Cuba's dictatorship while fuelling China's growth into a formidable super-power.  Anyone else recall when billions of dollars and countless lives were expended trying to keep oil out of the hands of communist dictatorships?  Last time I looked Ottawa spent billions on a pipeline in our desperation to get our oil into China's hands too.

When we investigate terrorists we deliberately look for often find and go after the networks of support that facilitate and empower them.  It works the very same way with dictatorships but we give the support they receive a pass, why?  We've come to depend on them too.  Decades of dependency have made us as complicit and even more so because we know better.

I'm okay with the economic damage being consistent with our stated principles would cause why aren't you?  My grandparents were okay giving up 25% of their GDP to fight tyranny, where were your's in the scheme of things?
I don't think anyone gave up 25% of their GDP.  Perhaps during the great depression.  So you were cool with the sanctions on Iraq then too?

"We are now in there responsible for killing people, destroying their families, their children, allowing their older parents to die for lack of basic medicines,"
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1999/09/former-un-official-says-sanctions-against-iraq-amount-genocide

Offline wilber

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6575
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1512 on: December 29, 2020, 01:04:53 pm »
The Battista regime which was overthrown by the Cuban revolution was propped up by the US and the Bay of Pigs was the US response to overthrow the revolution. Cuba has no reason to love America regardless who is in power.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline eyeball

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
Re: Government Day-to-Day
« Reply #1513 on: December 29, 2020, 04:53:15 pm »
I don't think anyone gave up 25% of their GDP.  Perhaps during the great depression.  So you were cool with the sanctions on Iraq then too?

Actually it was closer to 40%



https://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhile_canadian_initi/2017/06/150-years-of-canadian-national-defence-spending.html

Yes I was cool with sanctions against Iraq but I think we should also have applied them to anyone who helped Iraq's dictatorship. You know, actually try to raise a few eyebrows for a change.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 05:59:35 pm by eyeball »