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Author Topic: Federal Budget 2019  (Read 884 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2019, 03:36:43 pm »
Quote from: TimG on March 20, 2019, 03:25:44 pm
Except corporations are everything from a local restaurant to a mega corp like Apple. Go after corporations you go after a huge number of small and medium enterprises that don't fit your stereotype. Furthermore, it is profits from big blue chip companies that fund most people's retirement. Going after corporate profits means you are raiding peoples pension plans. Why would you ever think this is a good thing?

Ah no. If the big corporations paid their share of income taxes, as they used to do, and as employees do, our pensions would be MUCH better funded. These days for every dollar they pay, we pay $3.50. And often a lot of what they don't pay ends up offshore. And the US is much worse, especially since Trump got his hands on the purse strings. 
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Offline TimG

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2019, 03:40:01 pm »
Quote from: Omni on March 20, 2019, 03:36:43 pm
Ah no. If the big corporations paid their share of income taxes, as they used to do, and as employees do, our pensions would be MUCH better funded.
Most peoples pensions are funded by the profits of big corporations. Not by the taxes they pay.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2019, 03:41:07 pm »
Quote from: TimG on March 20, 2019, 03:25:44 pm
Except corporations are everything from a local restaurant to a mega corp like Apple. Go after corporations you go after a huge number of small and medium enterprises that don't fit your stereotype. Furthermore, it is profits from big blue chip companies that fund most people's retirement. Going after corporate profits means you are raiding peoples pension plans. Why would you ever think this is a good thing?

America's wealth is concentrated in the hands of 3 - count them THREE - people. They have as more wealth than half the country.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 03:42:45 pm by ?Impact »
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Offline TimG

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2019, 04:06:31 pm »
Quote from: ?Impact on March 20, 2019, 03:41:07 pm
America's wealth is concentrated in the hands of 3 - count them THREE - people. They have as more wealth than half the country.
And that wealth is mostly in the form of stocks in the companies they founded. Companies that went from employing no one to employing thousands over the course of few decades. Stocks that can also drop in value as fast as they rise (particularly if a government decided to treat corporations as a source of plunder).

Playing the wealth envy card is easy and it is not a lot different from the tactics Trump uses to stir up resentment against Mexicans. It is much harder to look at a complex problem and recognize that there no simple solutions. The bottom line is capitalism cannot exist without wealth differentials so the question is not how to eliminate these differentials but rather how mitigate these wealth differentials without killing the proverbial goose that lays the golden eggs. Polices driven by emotional statements like 'banks make big profits and don't deserve them' are not going to be good policies.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 04:08:15 pm by TimG »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2019, 04:07:12 pm »
Quote from: TimG on March 20, 2019, 03:40:01 pm
Most peoples pensions are funded by the profits of big corporations. Not by the taxes they pay.

Ah that would be most people that actually have corporate pensions, which has dropped significantly over time. Most people rely on government pensions which are funded by income taxes. Then there are roads,schools, healthcare, etc. Time to close the loopholes and get everyone to pay their fair share.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2019, 04:10:21 pm »
Quote from: Omni on March 20, 2019, 04:07:12 pm
Ah that would be most people that actually have corporate pensions, which has dropped significantly over time. Most people rely on government pensions which are funded by income taxes. Then there are roads,schools, healthcare, etc. Time to close the loopholes and get everyone to pay their fair share.
CPP equity holdings: http://www.cppib.com/documents/1804/cdn_publicequityholdings_Mar2018_en.htm

All the big banks are on the list. Attack bank profits then you will hurt the CPP pension fund.
The same is true for all major government pension funds.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2019, 04:12:39 pm »
Quote from: TimG on March 20, 2019, 04:06:31 pm
And that wealth is mostly in the form of stocks in the companies they founded.

Gates holds about 20% of his fortune in Microsoft stock
Bezos has sold over $5 billion in Amazon stock
Buffet is all about diversifying his investments


Next pseudo argument.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2019, 04:14:55 pm »
Quote from: TimG on March 20, 2019, 04:06:31 pm
And that wealth is mostly in the form of stocks in the companies they founded. Companies that went from employing no one to employing thousands over the course of few decades. Stocks that can also drop in value as fast as they rise (particularly if a government decided to treat corporations as a source of plunder).

Playing the wealth envy card is easy and it is not a lot different from the tactics Trump uses to stir up resentment against Mexicans. It is much harder to look at a complex problem and recognize that there no simple solutions. The bottom line is capitalism cannot exist without wealth differentials so the question is not how to eliminate these differentials but rather how mitigate these wealth differentials without killing the proverbial goose that lays the golden eggs. Polices driven by emotional statements like 'banks make big profits and don't deserve them' are not going to be good policies.

And one good way to mitigate the problem is let corps. pay their share. simple.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2019, 04:17:40 pm »
Quote from: ?Impact on March 20, 2019, 04:12:39 pm
Next pseudo argument.
Try responding to the arguments I made instead of picking on one minor point and ignoring the rest.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2019, 04:23:46 pm »
Quote from: Omni on March 20, 2019, 04:14:55 pm
And one good way to mitigate the problem is let corps. pay their share. simple.
As I have been trying to explain it is not simple because the concept of "their share" does not exist. That is emotional argument dreamed up because you resent organizations that make money despite the fact that we need these organizations if we want our economy to function.

On top of that attacking bank profits is the equivalent to raiding every Canadian's pension savings because these stocks are so widely held. Yet you simply ignore this point because it interferes with your desire to spin bank profits as inherently evil. They aren't. Profitable Canadian blue chip companies are a good thing.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2019, 04:24:37 pm »
Quote from: TimG on March 20, 2019, 04:17:40 pm
Try responding to the arguments I made instead of picking on one minor point and ignoring the rest.

That was the premise of your first paragraph.
Your second paragraph was ridiculous projection.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2019, 04:27:57 pm »
Quote from: TimG on March 20, 2019, 04:23:46 pm
As I have been trying to explain it is not simple because the concept of "their share" does not exist. That is emotional argument dreamed up because you resent organizations that make money despite the fact that we need these organizations if we want our economy to function.

On top of that attacking bank profits is the equivalent to raiding every Canadian's pension savings because these stocks are so widely held. Yet you simply ignore this point because it interferes with your desire to spin bank profits as inherently evil.

And once again, you simply drone on about corporate profits as if that's the only issue. I think we are all happy to see a company do well, but as they do they should pay tax on that income, just as we do. Since they have found loopholes to allow them to pay less, we have to come to the party to fill the gap. 
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Offline TimG

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2019, 04:29:07 pm »
Quote from: ?Impact on March 20, 2019, 04:24:37 pm
Your second paragraph was ridiculous projection.
No. It was an argument you don't want to deal with because you are unable to:

Quote
The bottom line is capitalism cannot exist without wealth differentials so the question is not how to eliminate these differentials but rather how mitigate these wealth differentials without killing the proverbial goose that lays the golden eggs. Polices driven by emotional statements like 'banks make big profits and don't deserve them' are not going to be good policies.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2019, 04:42:30 pm »
At a time when stocks and corporate profits are near record highs, the federal government has targeted small private corporations, expecting to recoup an estimated $250 million in tax revenue by closing loopholes.

If Ottawa instead closed all the loopholes used by large corporations, it could collect 40 times more than that.

In an average year, the 102 biggest companies in Canada pay $10.5 billion less than they would if they paid tax at the official corporate tax rate.

“That gap is undermining the integrity of the tax system,” said Jordan Brennan, an economist with UNIFOR, Canada’s largest private sector union, which represents Star employees. “Once we establish what the rates are, you have to have enforcement mechanisms to make sure (corporations) pay them.”

http://projects.thestar.com/canadas-corporations-pay-less-tax-than-you-think/
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Federal Budget 2019
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2019, 05:12:14 pm »
Quote from: TimG on March 20, 2019, 02:36:13 pm
Banks are an essential part of the capitalist economy and play an important role as enablers of social mobility by providing access to credit to those that can use it responsibly. Obviously, not everyone uses the bank services intelligently and pay more than they should but that is not a reason to criticize banks as an institution. Try taking the time to think about how a capitalist economy could work if there were no banks.

When it comes to fees for investment/conflicts of interest this is one area where constructive government regulation has been a huge help with the recent fee disclosure requirements. Few people seem to act on the information but at least consumers now have it.

Of course we need banks.  Fee disclosures are good but not enough, you need to eliminate the conflict of interest IMO.  Require all investment advisors to have a fiduciary duty to act in the client's best interests.
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