Author Topic: Electric vehicles  (Read 270 times)

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2019, 12:28:32 pm »
That's what I mean. Tesla limiting the use of Superchargers to Tesla's only may be a good selling point for his vehicles but it hurts the adoption of EV's in general.

Agreed. There are two separate issues here:

1. Compatibility. This is case where Tesla is the market leader, and everyone needs to converge around a standard. It is happening slowly, and the Type 2 connector is the beginning. There are other efforts like CCS that take that to the next level.

2. Investment. Does Tesla want to be in the "gas station" market, or are they making an investment to remove barriers to selling their product. I don't see any other car company stepping up and doing anything here. Traditional gas stations make their profit from selling chips and soda, car washes, etc. I don't recall seeing any Tesla charging stations with the retail attached.

Tesla has open sourced their patents, so they are doing a lot to encourage development in this space.

I have heard rumors that Tesla may be licensing their skateboard* to other car companies and/or manufacturing it for them. Nothing has been formally announced, but the rumors are they are in talks/negotiations. If they ever do that, I would suspect the bundled fee would include use of their supercharging network.

*skateboard - If you are not familiar with the term, it is essentially the drive train of the vehicle including the batteries, motors, electronics, and the chassis. Other car companies could take this and put their own body, interior, and tires to make a vehicle. In the case of an EV, this drive train and chassis generally resembles a skateboard.

Offline wilber

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2019, 12:52:35 pm »
Tesla keeping the supercharge network only for Teslaís while allowing them to use other charging systems gives an incentive to buy a Tesla over other EVís but it hinders the adoption of EVís in general. I donít blame Tesla for wanting to get the most out of their patents and yes, superchargers and other charging facilities should be profitable. Other users of electricity will only be prepared to subsidize EV owners for so long and money to maintain the infrastructure that all vehicles use will have to come from somewhere.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2019, 12:54:55 pm »
I think governments will have to get into setting standards at some point, as they have for IC vehicles.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2019, 01:19:54 pm »
I think governments will have to get into setting standards at some point, as they have for IC vehicles.

The type 2 connector I mentioned above is a government standard. It originated out of the EU, but has been adopted elsewhere. The CCS effort is the evolution of that standard, and seems to be getting buy-in from the US, China and Japan.

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2019, 04:51:05 pm »
Going for a ride right now in my Chinese knock-off Tezla.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2019, 05:03:36 pm »
Going for a ride right now in my Chinese knock-off Tezla.

They make golf carts?
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2019, 04:20:33 pm »
I can't afford to buy an electric vehicle any time soon.

Also, I'm not sure it's the best thing for the environment for me to buy an electric vehicle right now even if I could afford to.


I don't drive a lot. I did some quick calculations and as a rough estimate I think I put about 1500kg of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere by way of driving.  That sounds like a fair bit, but I did some searching on the internet and found that producing an average size car produces about 17000kg of carbon emissions.

So if I drive my current vehicle for 11 more years, I generate less carbon dioxide than buying a new electric vehicle would create before I drive it one centimeter.

At some point in the future the circumstances could change. Maybe some day my living circumstances will change and I will have to drive more. Maybe at some point in the future building a new car won't require 17000kg of carbon dioxide emissions.  Maybe if I wait longer the technology will improve and batteries will have better longevity and more electric infrastructure will emerge.   But for the time being it seems to me like sticking with my current vehicle and modest driving habits is actually better for the earth than buying a new product that will create tons of carbon emissions just to manufacture.


 -k
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2019, 10:49:56 am »
My current car is around 6 years old (Hyundai Accent... small car, very good gas mileage) so I'm not in the market for a new car yet.

I an however considering something like a Plug In Electric Hybrid for my next car. (These are vehicles with a battery range of around 50km, good for day to day city driving, but also have a gas engine for long distances.) Hyundai has the Ioniq for under $25,000. Given the fact that so many people drive big huge gas-guzzling SUVs, the price doesn't seem to be too far out out of the ball park.

Admittedly, I am a bit surprised by the improvements in electric vehicles and infrastructure. At one point I had predicted that the ultimate victor in zero-carbon emissions would be bio-fuels (such as ethanol generated from waste, or oil generated from algae), because it would both address the issue of global warming, and allow us to continue to use existing infrastructure.


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Offline Boges

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2019, 02:45:09 pm »
My current car is around 6 years old (Hyundai Accent... small car, very good gas mileage) so I'm not in the market for a new car yet.

I an however considering something like a Plug In Electric Hybrid for my next car. (These are vehicles with a battery range of around 50km, good for day to day city driving, but also have a gas engine for long distances.) Hyundai has the Ioniq for under $25,000. Given the fact that so many people drive big huge gas-guzzling SUVs, the price doesn't seem to be too far out out of the ball park.

Admittedly, I am a bit surprised by the improvements in electric vehicles and infrastructure. At one point I had predicted that the ultimate victor in zero-carbon emissions would be bio-fuels (such as ethanol generated from waste, or oil generated from algae), because it would both address the issue of global warming, and allow us to continue to use existing infrastructure.

You could, perhaps, get an Ioniq Hybrid for around $25,000.

And Full EV will run you north of $40,000. Most are north of $50,000 and a Plug-In Hybrid will run you around $30-$40.

Those prices are too high for your average commuter. And Dealers aren't yet given the same incentives to sell them as they are with other cars with higher margins like 0% financing. The whole point of buying a new car is getting a lower interest rate. Might as well buy a used car. 

And even in the case where you could afford a PHEV or an EV, Good luck finding a dealer to have one in stock for you to Test Drive.

Car makers aren't even close to making EVs a reasonable alternative to the public yet.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2019, 11:35:00 am »
You could, perhaps, get an Ioniq Hybrid for around $25,000.

And Full EV will run you north of $40,000. Most are north of $50,000 and a Plug-In Hybrid will run you around $30-$40.

Those prices are too high for your average commuter. Drive.
yes, its true... many/most EVs are very expensive. (Although I think you're wrong about the cost of a full EV... for example, the Tesla 3 is an all electric vehicle that is expected to cost ~$35,000 Canadian, not "North of $40,000".) And as I pointed out, the Hyundai Ioniq is not "$30-40,000", it is ~$25,000.

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/blog/35000-tesla-model-3-available-now

But, consider this: There has been a general shift away from small cars/sedans into larger vehicles (such as SUVs and trucks) over the past decade. It has gotten to the point where some car manufacturers (such as Ford) will no longer be selling sedans in the north american market. And bigger vehicles cost more. While the cheapest SUV I could find was around ~$20,000, most were in the $25,000 range or more, with many costing over $30,000. Supposedly the best selling SUV right now in Canada is the Honda CR-V, with a suggested retail price of over $28,000.)

So your 'average commuter' doesn't seem to be as interested in going cheap as they were in the past. They seem to be willing to spend money. If you compare the cost of hybrid/electric vehicles with what people are actually buying (as compared to what they could buy), the prices are really not that far out of line.

Now, does that mean people will rush out and buy electric vehicles and hybrids? No, because when it comes to vehicles, people are prone to making bad decisions. They buy big vehicles when small one might have suited their needs, and then grumble over the price of gas, or the cost of maintenance. They pay more attention to initial sales rather than long term costs. Electric vehicles do have barriers to widespread adoption, but much of that has nothing to do with price.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/small-cars-trucks-suvs-1.4644725

https://driving.ca/bodystyle/suv
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And Dealers aren't yet given the same incentives to sell them as they are with other cars with higher margins like 0% financing. The whole point of buying a new car is getting a lower interest rate. Might as well buy a used car. 
The Hyundai Ioniq currently has a 0% financing deal with Hyundai.
Kia offers an 8 year warranty on EV components (more than its 5 year powertrain warranty on their other cars).
And the financing available on the Honda Accord Hybrid is 2.99%, which is lower than the financing on there Accord LX (4.99%).

So yes, dealers do sometimes offer incentives on EV and hybrids, that are comparable to the incentives offered on traditional vehicles.

And of course there are also things like government incentives.
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And even in the case where you could afford a PHEV or an EV, Good luck finding a dealer to have one in stock for you to Test Drive.
Yes, some electric vehicle manufacturers (such as Tesla) have trouble meeting demand for orders. But not all manufacturers have the same problem.

Offline wilber

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2019, 11:47:16 am »
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yes, its true... many/most EVs are very expensive. (Although I think you're wrong about the cost of a full EV... for example, the Tesla 3 is an all electric vehicle that is expected to cost ~$35,000 Canadian, not "North of $40,000".) And as I pointed out, the Hyundai Ioniq is not "$30-40,000", it is ~$25,000.

According to the Tesla site the Canadian price for the Model 3 starts at $56,000. Long range AWD models are in the mid to high 60's.

Only the standard range 2WD's qualify for government rebates.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 12:03:29 pm by wilber »
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Offline wilber

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2019, 12:12:47 pm »
In another five years the selection of EV's and the infrastructure might be more appealing to me but now I think a PHEV would suit us better as an all round vehicle.

We always wanted a nice Jarman car and when we downsized we bought one. It is now six years old and in great shape and now I'm spoiled. There is a PHEV version in Europe which will be coming to NA in the spring but I think it might be somewhat on the pricy side for us.

Actually I don't think, I'm pretty sure.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 01:24:30 pm by wilber »
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2019, 01:04:53 pm »
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yes, its true... many/most EVs are very expensive. (Although I think you're wrong about the cost of a full EV... for example, the Tesla 3 is an all electric vehicle that is expected to cost ~$35,000 Canadian, not "North of $40,000".) And as I pointed out, the Hyundai Ioniq is not "$30-40,000", it is ~$25,000.
According to the Tesla site the Canadian price for the Model 3 starts at $56,000.
My mistake... I was looking at the Tesla information for the U.S.

Still, there are all-electric vehicles that are under $40,000... the Hyundai Ioniq and the Volkswagen egolf are both in the $37-38,000 range. So I think my point still stands (even if I was wrong about one specific vehicle).

https://www.plugndrive.ca/electric-cars-available-in-canada/

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Long range AWD models are in the mid to high 60's.
Yes, getting vehicles with longer ranges or more features increases the price.

But that is also true of all vehicles. After all, if you want 4 wheel drive on an SUV you probably won't find that on the base model, but you will have to pick one of the higher end models (which also increases the price.)

Offline wilber

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2019, 01:30:11 pm »
There aren't many SUV's that aren't AWD and it is getting pretty common in sedans now. It used to be you had to buy something like a Subaru or Audi to get AWD. Now it is standard or available on a lot of vehicles.

The Hyundai Kona gas is available in AWD but the EV can only be had in 2WD.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Electric vehicles
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2019, 04:12:00 pm »
So your 'average commuter' doesn't seem to be as interested in going cheap as they were in the past.

True, but even more important many people are looking at total cost of ownership instead of just ticket price. Electric vehicles save considerable on "fuel" and maintenance.