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Author Topic: 2021 Election Campaign  (Read 11220 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #165 on: August 26, 2021, 05:19:23 am »
How does Europe deliver two-tier healthcare?
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Offline MH

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #166 on: August 26, 2021, 08:09:08 am »
It seems to me that the assumption that 2-tier would be worse for the average non-paying person is incorrect and based on our fundamental mistrust of how services are managed.

Could we use this as an opportunity to BOTH improve service AND trust ?

And if that doesn't happen, abandon the project ?

I lived in France and as socialist as it was, they had gold-plated things for the wealthy.  And the 'common person' had way better services than we have as I recall.   

It seems to me that our prejudices are holding us back.  Maybe a pilot project would help this.
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Online wilber

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #167 on: August 26, 2021, 10:05:44 am »
Quote from: MH on August 26, 2021, 08:09:08 am
It seems to me that the assumption that 2-tier would be worse for the average non-paying person is incorrect and based on our fundamental mistrust of how services are managed.

Could we use this as an opportunity to BOTH improve service AND trust ?

And if that doesn't happen, abandon the project ?

I lived in France and as socialist as it was, they had gold-plated things for the wealthy.  And the 'common person' had way better services than we have as I recall.   

It seems to me that our prejudices are holding us back.  Maybe a pilot project would help this.

The WHO ranks France #1 in health care, Canada is ranked #30. Most of the 29 countries ranked above us have mixed systems, including western Europe and Scandinavia.

Canadians would rather just point at the US and do nothing instead of doing anything to improve their own system.

.
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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #168 on: August 26, 2021, 10:41:28 am »
Quote from: MH on August 26, 2021, 05:19:23 am
How does...
Quote from: MH on August 26, 2021, 08:09:08 am
It seems to me... It seems to me...

Quote from: wilber on August 26, 2021, 10:05:44 am
The WHO ranks...

this is not the thread for an in-depth discussion on country-comparison health care... where, respectively, you get a member offering anecdote and perception without detail. Where you get another member speaking of 2-decade old 2000 WHO rankings as if they have meaning today:

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NOTE: The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task.

2021 election campaign health care related pledges can be... should be... analyzed on their merits (or lack therein). It is not anecdote that 2-tier health care worsens wait list times in the public sphere; it is not anecdote that 2-tier health care causes a removal of medical professionals from the public sphere; it is not anecdote that 2-tier health care creates 2 standards of health care - one for people who can pay and one for people who can't.
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Offline Boges

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #169 on: August 26, 2021, 11:57:37 am »
Quote from: waldo on August 26, 2021, 10:41:28 am
this is not the thread for an in-depth discussion on country-comparison health care... where, respectively, you get a member offering anecdote and perception without detail. Where you get another member speaking of 2-decade old 2000 WHO rankings as if they have meaning today:

2021 election campaign health care related pledges can be... should be... analyzed on their merits (or lack therein). It is not anecdote that 2-tier health care worsens wait list times in the public sphere; it is not anecdote that 2-tier health care causes a removal of medical professionals from the public sphere; it is not anecdote that 2-tier health care creates 2 standards of health care - one for people who can pay and one for people who can't.

Feel free to complain to admin if you're unhappy with the logical conclusion of a discussion regarding Canada joining much of the rest of the developed world and having an option for private delivery of Healthcare.

Making it illegal is the more extreme stance, IMHO.
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Offline Boges

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #170 on: August 26, 2021, 11:59:25 am »
Things aren't going in the right direction for JT.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8135771/canada-election-ipsos-week-2/

If he does squeak by with another minority, his party should turf him for wasting everyone's time.
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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #171 on: August 26, 2021, 12:15:58 pm »
Quote from: Boges on August 26, 2021, 11:57:37 am
Feel free to complain to admin if you're unhappy with the logical conclusion of a discussion regarding Canada joining much of the rest of the developed world and having an option for private delivery of Healthcare.

and yet you refuse to answer the pointed questions asked of you; again:

=> do you actually maintain that 2-tier doesn't negatively impact upon public healthcare - is that your position?

=> do you recognize that 2-tier is actually 2 standards of health care; one for those who can pay & one for those who can't?

somehow you conveniently ignore private clinics that exist today! Is that because you don't like having it highlighted that they're like private clubs charging significant membership fees... and they are forced to charge for insured health care only to the limits as set forth by the Canada Health Act... and they isolate (take away) medical professionals from the public sphere?

"logical conclusion" - says proponent of 2-tier health care!
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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #172 on: August 26, 2021, 12:25:59 pm »
Quote from: Boges on August 26, 2021, 11:59:25 am
Things aren't going in the right direction for JT.

early days... but yes, in the aggregate, Liberal numbers are down. Your reference to the "national number" is as stoopid as CTV continuing to play up a single Nanos poll. Perhaps you could elaborate on the value add a national number... versus regional numbers, provides - yes?

considering how biased the media has proven itself to be (who knew, ya ya), considering how lazy and inept the media has proven itself to be, considering the media does not fact-check a damn thing the lying & misinforming NDP/Singh states, considering CPC/O'Toole has made promises that have outright shifted the CPC to the centre left (and away from the CPC platform, away from the CPC base, away from the social conservative elements within the CPC)... ya, those numbers are down!
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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #173 on: August 26, 2021, 12:39:24 pm »
Afghanistan: blatant political opportunism by NDP/Singh & CPC/O'Toole

since all Singh says is "bad man Justin Trudeau", let the waldo speak of the nonsense O'Toole is spewing. Canada was able to fly out 17 flights, whether O'Toole refuses to acknowledge them or not! O'Toole, a Harper cabinet minister, had the audacity to claim the federal government refused to, as he states, "re-open the special immigration pathway established for Afghan interpreters under the previous Conservative government". Geezaz waldo, the guy won't even say the Harper government! LOL!

ya waldo, what about that "special Harper government immigration pathway":

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #174 on: August 26, 2021, 01:22:56 pm »
Quote from: wilber on August 26, 2021, 10:05:44 am
Canadians would rather just point at the US and do nothing instead of doing anything to improve their own system.

.

I agree.  Private Healthcare gets the boogeyman treatment because the US system has their problems.  I think if they much better regulated insurance policies (ie cost controls, making preexisting conditions irrelevant etc) and other controls it would be a better system.  No idea how much better,  but clearly their current system is too deregulated.

This whole topic is a bit of a Liberal boogeyman because Otoole doesn't set provincial healthcare policy.

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Online wilber

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #175 on: August 26, 2021, 01:55:09 pm »
Quote from: Gorgeous Graham on August 26, 2021, 01:22:56 pm
I agree.  Private Healthcare gets the boogeyman treatment because the US system has their problems.  I think if they much better regulated insurance policies (ie cost controls, making preexisting conditions irrelevant etc) and other controls it would be a better system.  No idea how much better,  but clearly their current system is too deregulated.

This whole topic is a bit of a Liberal boogeyman because Otoole doesn't set provincial healthcare policy.

waldo only wants to discus waldo's talking points.
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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #176 on: August 26, 2021, 02:24:32 pm »
Quote from: wilber on August 26, 2021, 01:55:09 pm
waldo only wants to discus waldo's talking points.

geezaz wilber - are you a lil' put off cause the waldo highlighted your "gem" was 2-decades old? I keep emphasizing this thread as an opportunity to discuss respective party election platform policy intent/pledges - what are you waiting for? Apparently you're keen to derail this thread from that most useful undertaking... in favour of, if done properly, a most exhaustive and complex undertaking to attempt country comparison health care? Really? There's no shortage of private health care case examples within Canada - even a key one that your boy CPC/O'Toole uses as a repeated go-to! Again, what are you waiting for?
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Online wilber

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #177 on: August 26, 2021, 02:38:34 pm »
Quote from: waldo on August 26, 2021, 02:24:32 pm
geezaz wilber - are you a lil' put off cause the waldo highlighted your "gem" was 2-decades old? I keep emphasizing this thread as an opportunity to discuss respective party election platform policy intent/pledges - what are you waiting for? Apparently you're keen to derail this thread from that most useful undertaking... in favour of, if done properly, a most exhaustive and complex undertaking to attempt country comparison health care? Really? There's no shortage of private health care case examples within Canada - even a key one that your boy CPC/O'Toole uses as a repeated go-to! Again, what are you waiting for?

We are discussing part of the Conservative platform, it just doesn't fit your narative.

World Population Review rankings for 2021 puts Canada at 30. France still #1.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 02:45:42 pm by wilber »
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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #178 on: August 26, 2021, 02:50:52 pm »
Quote from: Gorgeous Graham on August 26, 2021, 12:24:11 am
O'Toole doesn't get to decide any of this anyways so its irrelevant.
Quote from: Gorgeous Graham on August 26, 2021, 01:22:56 pm
This whole topic is a bit of a Liberal boogeyman because Otoole doesn't set provincial healthcare policy.

there are an assortment of past practices, (like blatant extra-billing by doctors), that ultimately brought forward federal legislation in the form of the Canada Health Act. That federal CHA law forced provinces to enact their own legislation to ensure compliance with the CHA; legislation like:
Quote
=> restrictions that stop a doctor who bills public medicare from charging a patient an additional amount (extra-billing);

=> restrictions that prevent physicians from billing both the public and private systems simultaneously, at least for “medically necessary” care (dual practice);

=> restrictions on physicians in the private sector charging prices for medically necessary care that are higher than those permitted in the public plan; and

=> restrictions on private health insurance for services that are covered by medicare.

when CPC/O'Toole explicitly states he, "trusts the premiers to take the lead on what more choice and more innovation means... trusts the premiers to do what is best for patients in their provinces", that is not someone, a leader, working to protect the enforcement of the CHA and the protection of universal access without the encroachment and detrimental impacts of private-for-profit health care. Imagine if a competent media wag actually asked CPC/O'Toole how he would ensure the "private-for-profit innovation & efficiencies" he continually natters on about, won't compromise the integrity of the CHA... won't result in {Conservative} premiers eliminating those provincial laws that currently enforce adherence to the CHA.
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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 Election Campaign
« Reply #179 on: August 26, 2021, 02:54:53 pm »
Quote from: wilber on August 26, 2021, 02:38:34 pm
World Population Review rankings for 2021 puts Canada at 30. France still #1.

geezaz member wilber... you've got to be purposely trolling! I mean, c'mon... don't you find it strange/odd that those numbers line up exactly with the 2000 WHO rankings you bungled earlier? Wait waldo, surely someone will tell wilber the World Population Review rankings are simply a reference to those same 2000 WHO rankings... surely! Oh my!
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