Author Topic: Election 2019: Do something different!  (Read 2755 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2604
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2019, 10:06:15 pm »
Every gas pump in this city is at the same exact price except if you have a Costco card and then you save 3 cents so you will come there to food shop as well. How naive are you?
And the following week the prices drop because one station decided to have a sale. It is called competition. Why on earth who you think a free competitive market would behave any differently?

Offline Omni

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6913
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2019, 10:33:38 pm »
And the following week the prices drop because one station decided to have a sale. It is called competition. Why on earth who you think a free competitive market would behave any differently?

Yeah, "Joe's" gas station down the street drops his prices a few pennies to try attract a little local business. Do you actually think that affects Exxon-Mobil, Shell etc.? Nope. And we've all heard the BS reasons the big boys give us while they jack prices up all over town. "It was cold this winter so we have to charge you more" etc.

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2604
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2019, 10:49:05 pm »
Yeah, "Joe's" gas station down the street drops his prices a few pennies to try attract a little local business. Do you actually think that affects Exxon-Mobil, Shell etc.? Nope. And we've all heard the BS reasons the big boys give us while they jack prices up all over town. "It was cold this winter so we have to charge you more" etc.
WTF? This has nothing to do with my point. Gas prices jump around all of the time because the market is highly competitive. That is sufficient proof do anyone who understands how markets work. I have no idea how you think a competitive market should behave but I suspect that no matter how the market behaved you would accuse the players of collusion because it is not about what the gas companies do but about your desire to whinge about gas companies.

Offline Omni

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6913
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2019, 11:15:11 pm »
WTF? This has nothing to do with my point. Gas prices jump around all of the time because the market is highly competitive. That is sufficient proof do anyone who understands how markets work. I have no idea how you think a competitive market should behave but I suspect that no matter how the market behaved you would accuse the players of collusion because it is not about what the gas companies do but about your desire to whinge about gas companies.

If you don't think gas companies collude then tell me why almost every gas pump in this city is exactly the same every day even if they move up or down here and there based on of course their own product supplier costs, and not competition. Perhaps you buy Trump's "no collusion" argument as well?

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2604
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2019, 11:43:43 pm »
If you don't think gas companies collude then tell me why almost every gas pump in this city is exactly the same every day even if they move up or down here and there based on of course their own product supplier costs, and not competition.
Huh? What makes you think gas stations don't watch each others prices because they are posted on sign outside of every gas station? If one station lowers prices the others near by are have to follow suit or lose business. At some point a gas stations will sell all the gas they have and need to raise prices to pay for the next shipment. Others will follow suit as their run out of fuel. It is a constant see saw because the market is competitive. You really don't understand how a competitive market works.

Offline Poonlight Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3805
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2019, 11:59:04 pm »
Furthermore, the notion that there is a "corporate" agenda is nonsense since every corporation has different interests and these interests are no more self serving than the interests of various voters.

Firstly, corporations all share one agenda: maximizing profits.

Secondly, the difference is that corporations don't get a vote, but voters do, and government exists to serve the people, not corporate profits at the expense of the people.  We've seen a lot of ass-licking of SNV-Lavalin, and the mega-powerful banking industry can only get away with ripping people off with politicians looking the other way.  Who knows what kind of BS has been happening in the real estate industry.

"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Omni

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6913
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2019, 12:06:22 am »
Huh? What makes you think gas stations don't watch each others prices because they are posted on sign outside of every gas station? If one station lowers prices the others near by are have to follow suit or lose business. At some point a gas stations will sell all the gas they have and need to raise prices to pay for the next shipment. Others will follow suit as their run out of fuel. It is a constant see saw because the market is competitive. You really don't understand how a competitive market works.

I guess it depends on what your understanding of competitive means. In gas stations, some are totally owned by the supplier who's marketing dept. sets the price. Others are independently owned but the supplier still sets the price and also requires the owner to meet a certain volume of sales. The owner can play with prices as they choose under those confines. Not a lot of people go into business to take a loss so essentially the prices are dictated by the supplier.

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2604
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2019, 12:51:06 am »
Firstly, corporations all share one agenda: maximizing profits.
You can say that about every voter too. Except with voters "maximizing profits" means maximizing the benefits to the voter. That said, companies don't share the same agenda in terms of how to maximize profits. Some corporations want more regulation because it keeps out competition or allows them to collect subsidies. Other want less because of the cost of red tape. Every corporation is different and there is no single "corporate agenda".

Lastly, corporations represent the collective interest of shareholder/voters and are not materially different from labour unions who represent the collective interest of workers. So it is not true to say they do not have a right to participate in the political process if their shareholders are Canadian.

Secondly, the difference is that corporations don't get a vote, but voters do, and government exists to serve the people, not corporate profits at the expense of the people.  We've seen a lot of ass-licking of SNV-Lavalin, and the mega-powerful banking industry can only get away with ripping people off with politicians looking the other way.  Who knows what kind of BS has been happening in the real estate industry.
Even at his worse Trudeau seemed to care more that voters in Quebec cared what happened the SNC rather than caring about the company per se. That said, when regulation needs to be brought in to address a problem there are always plenty of the individual voters who like the status quo (i.e. all those real estate agents making out like bandits laundering money). I don't think it is reasonable to distinguish between "corporate" and "individual" greed in these cases.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 12:53:10 am by TimG »
Like Like x 1 View List

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6825
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2019, 08:28:48 am »
1. the environmental movement is underpinned with marxist ideology and has become home to many who see it as a means to another end. 
2. i speak from experience of someone with two environmental science degrees, i know the type. 
3. Think Gerald Butts.  Many others of them dont really understand what they are standing for.

 
1. Ridiculous ad hominem. 
2. "Believe me" arguing... ( I don't)
3. Cites a mainstream political apparatchuk as communist.

This is the usual type of commentary from the 'new politics' posters.  Really just give poochy a 'pass' as he's watching a different ball game than the rest of us.  :D
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6825
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2019, 08:31:22 am »

1. So we need to stop that corporate gravy train, ditch that fake majority nonsense, make them work across Parties and work for us, not corporations.

2. The Greens platform includes implementing Proportional Representation. That helps reduce majorities and corruption.

1. Except that Corporations are good for us in certain ways.
2. Really they just have to take out all-but-personal donations and elevate the level of discussion by identifying and establishing channels for knowledgeable audiences for policy areas.  Example: an agriculture discussion group would include: farmers (incl. corporate farmers), and taxpayers-consumers with government mediating the discussion.

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6825
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2019, 08:36:46 am »
You can say that about every voter too. Except with voters "maximizing profits" means maximizing the benefits to the voter.

That's an interesting angle and I agree with the base, but individuals and corporations differ fundamentally in a few ways and I see you pointed out some of that later on.  As stated, an individual isn't beholden to a shareholder, and another example is that corporate social responsibility is a different type of weight than community morals or whatever individuals follow. 

I think the key thing we agree on is that 'selfishness' is part of life, and by extension part of economics.

Quote
I don't think it is reasonable to distinguish between "corporate" and "individual" greed in these cases.

On a level of scale it is, though.  Principles like "individuals and corporations should be allowed to work in their self interest" have a limit.  If a corporation owns all the water in a country dying of thirst, there is no principle.  I would say the actual overarching principle is "corporations are given special considerations so long as they are perceived to benefit the public good"

Offline Granny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 856
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2019, 08:43:07 am »
Green Party unveils 20-point climate change plan
https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2019/05/16/green-party-unveils-20-point-climate-change-plan.html
OTTAWA—As MPs debated competing “climate emergency” declarations in the House of Commons Thursday, the Green Party released an urgent — and as yet uncosted — blueprint to transform the Canadian economy, abandon partisan political divisions in a manner not seen since the Second World War, and overcome a looming catastrophe that is “as dire as the loss of civilization.”

The Green climate plan — dubbed “Mission: Possible” — would double Canada’s emissions reduction target to 60 per cent below 2005 levels by 2030. It would halt all new fossil fuel development in the country, pursue a nationwide shift toward non-nuclear renewable energy, and create “millions” of jobs by retrofitting all buildings in Canada so that they’re carbon neutral over the next 11 years.

It also calls for the creation of a new “survival cabinet” composed of members from all parties to direct the climate action plan from the heart of government, a proposal modelled on the wartime cabinets of William Lyon Mackenzie King and Winston Churchill.

“We’re saying to all Canadians: this is something we have to do together,” Green Leader Elizabeth May told reporters on Parliament Hill Thursday morning.

“We cannot continue to pretend that we are in a status-quo world where significant changes aren’t coming. Canadians have more in common than we have in difference. We have to pull together,” she said. “This is all hands on deck.


THIS is the kind of politics we need in 2019.

The Lib-Con gutter politics of dividing Canadians and pandering to the basest motives of voters is a game of idiots squabbling over who's playing the fiddle while the world burns.

Neither Scheer nor Trudeau can ever match Elizabeth May for intelligence, decency, respect, intentions, fairness, focus, vision ... etc ... all the qualities we need in leadership.

Add:
Re the Greens' focus on retrofitting buildings ...
I recently read a summary of sources of greenhouse gases (GHG's) in Canada, and "buildings" are at the top of the list, not homes so much but industrial/commercial buildings. I'll post link if I find it again.

Canada has very high levels of GHG's and is currently increasing GHG's at a disturbing rate:

-Canada ranks 15th out of 17 countries for greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions per capita and earns a “D” grade.
-Canada’s per capita GHG emissions decreased by nearly 5 per cent between 1990 and 2010, while total GHG emissions in Canada grew 17 per cent.
-The largest contributor to Canada’s GHG emissions is the energy sector, which includes power generation (heat and electricity), transportation, and fugitive sources.

IE, Heating/cooling and all the energy required for industrial/commercial processes (including oil and gas operations, manufacturing, distribution, etc)

The Green's plan to immediately target subsidies to retrofitting of these large GHG sources is not only efficient in addressing climate change, but verypolitically astute.
Hats off!  :)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 06:12:22 pm by Granny »

Offline ?Impact

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2782
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2019, 03:10:36 pm »
Lastly, corporations represent the collective interest of shareholder/voters and are not materially different from labour unions who represent the collective interest of workers. So it is not true to say they do not have a right to participate in the political process if their shareholders are Canadian.

How do you know the shareholders are Canadian? Regardless, if they are Canadian then they already participate in the political process.

I agree however that unions are not that much different than corporations in respect to participation in the political process.

Offline Poonlight Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3805
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2019, 03:56:21 pm »
You can say that about every voter too. Except with voters "maximizing profits" means maximizing the benefits to the voter.

The difference, again, is that voters get a vote, and corporations do not.

Quote
Lastly, corporations represent the collective interest of shareholder/voters and are not materially different from labour unions who represent the collective interest of workers. So it is not true to say they do not have a right to participate in the political process if their shareholders are Canadian.

At least unions represent voters.  Shareholders are international.  But unions themselves are not voters, they are a special interest group, and should be subject to limits just like corporations.

My point is, government should act in the public interest aka the interest of voters.  If government does something to help or harm corporations, it should be in the interests of Canadian voters, not the interest of specific corporations.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 03:58:04 pm by Poonlight Graham »
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Poonlight Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3805
Re: Election 2019: Do something different!
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2019, 04:12:59 pm »
Canada has very high levels of GHG's and is currently increasing GHG's at a disturbing rate:

-Canada ranks 15th out of 17 countries for greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions per capita and earns a “D” grade.
-Canada’s per capita GHG emissions decreased by nearly 5 per cent between 1990 and 2010, while total GHG emissions in Canada grew 17 per cent.

Canada has a high GHG per capita.  But it only has 36 million people out of 8 billion.  Canada is responsible for only about 1.8% of the world's total CO2 output.  Anything Canada does or doesn't do in regards to CO2 or climate change will be almost negligible, and we have to factor that in if we're going to enact costly changes.  Trudeau and May want to save the world from CC, but they can't.  If we spent a ton of money on retrofitting buildings and tearing down old fossil fuel plants & built renewable energy & by miracle cut Canada's CO2 emissions by 40% it would feel great but would hardly make a dent.  What is May's plan going to cost?  What's the cost/benefit analysis here?
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb
Old Old x 1 View List