Author Topic: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline  (Read 3484 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #165 on: September 06, 2018, 01:05:29 pm »
Saving the orcas has been cited as one of the reasons why increased tanker traffic out of Vancouver can't be permitted.  But not allowing more tanker traffic doesn't save the orcas.  At the very best it just delays the inevitable.

Tankers aren't any more disruptive to orcas than other kinds of ships.  And Vancouver has one hell of a lot of ships coming and going, most of which have nothing to do with oil.  Shipping of all types is disruptive to orcas, but the Trans Mountain Pipeline approval only deals with tanker traffic.  All these freighters and container ships apparently don't need to pass environmental review.

And, the orcas are starving.  A drastic reduction in the chinook salmon catch is required to keep them from starving.

Vancouverites are very big on saving the orcas when it's other peoples' livelihood that is impacted. If it's not just a bunch of hot air and they really care about saving the iconic whales, they need to bite the bullet on things-- the commercial fishery, and the port--  that are going to impact their own livelihood as well.

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #166 on: September 06, 2018, 01:07:08 pm »
They have no excuse for not fixing the process before doing the Trans Mountain approval.

What specific problems with the process need to be fixed, when were they known, and how do they play into the Tran Mountain approval? Remember the recent court case was challenging the 2016 approval.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #167 on: September 06, 2018, 01:17:21 pm »
The article I linked was from June 2016, and the Trans Mountain approval wasn't until November 29, 2016, so they certainly knew that the consultation process didn't meet the court's requirements at the time.

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Offline TimG

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #168 on: September 06, 2018, 01:40:04 pm »
The article I linked was from June 2016, and the Trans Mountain approval wasn't until November 29, 2016, so they certainly knew that the consultation process didn't meet the court's requirements at the time.
One of the problems in Canada is no one can know what the courts requirements are in advance. The notion that a native group with no claims along the pipeline route itself has to be consulted because of the incremental effect on a species with no commercial or food value is an absurd stretch. It was reasonable for someone to argue it was not worth looking at orcas because tankers don't add much additional risk compared to the increase in non-oil shipping and the native group in question has not objected to non-oil shipping.

What pisses me off about these judges is their ridiculous nativity. The natives don't care that much about orcas (if they did they would be demanding the port of Vancouver shut down). Orca are just a pretext used to delay and kill the pipeline. The judges should have taken the fact that natives are acting in bad faith into account in the judgement. Instead the government has to waste time pretending to consult and accommodate with people who have no interest in consultation or accommodation.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 01:42:59 pm by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #169 on: September 06, 2018, 04:26:10 pm »
People will invest in things.  But not in anything that has to go through this ridiculous process.
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Good.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #170 on: September 06, 2018, 04:40:39 pm »
Good.

Hopefully it **** up other industries, like BC's LNG ambitions and hydro dam projects, just as much as it has **** up oil.

The feds understand that this situation is a disaster and are scrambling to fix it.  They understand a disaster in the making, even if you don't.


You're a government worker, so perhaps the idea that peoples' livelihood depends on things like this is foreign to you.

 -k
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #171 on: September 06, 2018, 05:14:33 pm »
No one will starve if we don’t remove more oil from the ground than we are currently doing.   It’s not going anywhere.  Build a pipeline east.   Seems to make more sense to use our own oil in Canada than to import from Saudi Arabia. And make a pipeline west, so we can get world prices.  But do it in the correct manner, which hasn’t been done up to now.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #172 on: September 06, 2018, 07:23:32 pm »
Hopefully it **** up other industries, like BC's LNG ambitions and hydro dam projects, just as much as it has **** up oil.

The feds understand that this situation is a disaster and are scrambling to fix it.  They understand a disaster in the making, even if you don't.


You're a government worker, so perhaps the idea that peoples' livelihood depends on things like this is foreign to you.

 -k
Again, you're running with alarmist nonsense that's been spread on conservative blogs. You're a bunch of chicken littles whining about the sky falling because there's a process to hold companies accountable for destroying the environment and communities. If the reviews are too arduous for them, then their businesses aren't worth having here and not worth investing in. I don't subscribe to the nonsensical belief of having jobs at any cost, ignoring not only the vast amount of time and money the public spends cleaning up their messes, but the harm they cause to both people and the environment (which we spend even more money on fixing for them). If the reviews are too inconvenient for investors, then good. **** them.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #173 on: September 06, 2018, 07:28:57 pm »
They'll redo the native consultation, redo an environmental study, and then there'll be 18 more lawsuits and court challenges, plus John Horgan's constitutional reference case where he tries to get jurisdiction over what's shipped through the pipeline comes along and the pipeline will be back at square one again.

 This whole project is **** for the foreseeable future.

I think Rachel should order that the current Trans Mountain pipeline be closed down for maintenance. It's 65 years old, it could probably use some sprucing up.  "To protect pristine moose habitat in the Alberta section of the pipeline between Edson and Jasper, and to provide work for the workers laid off due to the TMX approval being overturned, I am pleased to announce a project to refurbish the existing Trans Mountain Pipeline.  All Alberta products will be shipped east and south until further notice. Our existing international commitments will be met by oil-by-rail."

Vancouver can buy US oil and refine it at the cute little Fisher-Price sized refinery at Burnaby.

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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #174 on: September 06, 2018, 07:35:58 pm »
They'll redo the native consultation, redo an environmental study, and then there'll be 18 more lawsuits and court challenges, plus John Horgan's constitutional reference case where he tries to get jurisdiction over what's shipped through the pipeline comes along and the pipeline will be back at square one again.

 This whole project is **** for the foreseeable future.

I think Rachel should order that the current Trans Mountain pipeline be closed down for maintenance. It's 65 years old, it could probably use some sprucing up.  "To protect pristine moose habitat in the Alberta section of the pipeline between Edson and Jasper, and to provide work for the workers laid off due to the TMX approval being overturned, I am pleased to announce a project to refurbish the existing Trans Mountain Pipeline.  All Alberta products will be shipped east and south until further notice. Our existing international commitments will be met by oil-by-rail."

Vancouver can buy US oil and refine it at the cute little Fisher-Price sized refinery at Burnaby.

 -k

This is more hyperbole...   Alberta and Canada doesn’t reserve the right to ram anything they want through BC without the proper processes being followed.   Up to now, this hasn’t happened for the pipeline.

You do realize that if the pipeline is shut down that Albertan tar sands will be shut down to the same degree, right?

What shuts down in BC if the pipeline does?  A few tankers a day don’t come through?   A few maintenance jobs along the corridor are lost?  THe pipeline is no big deal to BC...  it’s a HUGE deal to Alberta.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #175 on: September 06, 2018, 07:47:21 pm »
Again, you're running with alarmist nonsense that's been spread on conservative blogs. You're a bunch of chicken littles whining about the sky falling because there's a process to hold companies accountable for destroying the environment and communities. If the reviews are too arduous for them, then their businesses aren't worth having here and not worth investing in. I don't subscribe to the nonsensical belief of having jobs at any cost, ignoring not only the vast amount of time and money the public spends cleaning up their messes, but the harm they cause to both people and the environment (which we spend even more money on fixing for them). If the reviews are too inconvenient for investors, then good. **** them.

Kinder-Morgan made 43 agreements with the First Nations tribes along the length of the project and did everything possible to get "buy-in" for the pipeline.   The bands along the length of the pipeline signed on and are now disappointed that this isn't going ahead, because they were going to benefit from it.    The benefits they were going to realize have now gone up in smoke because tribes that aren't even on the pipeline sued to stop it. 


And as I posted earlier, if Vancouverites really cared about saving their orcas, stopping increased tanker traffic isn't enough. They need to drastically reduce the salmon fisheries, and they need to drastically reduce freighter and container ship traffic because other kinds of shipping are just as disruptive to the orcas as tankers are.  The southern-resident orcas are well on their way to extinction, and tankers are only a small fraction of shipping in the area.    But Vancouverites won't stand for more cuts to the commercial fishery, and they won't stand for having their port throttled back, because that would cost Vancouverites jobs, and Vancouverites are a bunch of hypocrites.


You say that complaints about this are just alarmism, but McKenna and Sohi are scrambling to get their departments to fix the approvals process, so obviously the government of Canada is at least a bit alarmed about this as well.  Suncor has announced that there'll be no further oilsands development until pipeline capacity improves, so obviously they're somewhat alarmed.  Similar projects in Saskatchewan are no doubt likewise going to be scaled back or dropped until our export capacity improves, so I imagine Saskatchewan residents are alarmed.  Steel makers who were manufacturing pipeline are probably alarmed.

You still didn't say why you think anybody would be dumb enough to put their money into going through a process that even the government doesn't know how to navigate, or why anybody would put money into getting an approval that natives and environmentalists and  NIMBYs get to file unlimited lawsuits until they get their way.

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Offline wilber

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #176 on: September 06, 2018, 07:49:33 pm »
This is more hyperbole...   Alberta and Canada doesn’t reserve the right to ram anything they want through BC without the proper processes being followed.   Up to now, this hasn’t happened for the pipeline.

You do realize that if the pipeline is shut down that Albertan tar sands will be shut down to the same degree, right?

What shuts down in BC if the pipeline does?  A few tankers a day don’t come through?   A few maintenance jobs along the corridor are lost?  THe pipeline is no big deal to BC...  it’s a HUGE deal to Alberta.

Actually a lot would shut down. BC gets over 50% of its refined product from Edmonton refineries. US refineries don't have the capacity to replace what we get from Alberta and Americans aren't going to go short in order to supply BC. Even if they could, I guess you would rather have hundreds of tank trucks crossing the border every day carrying refined products than get them in a pipe from fellow Canadians.


« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 07:52:06 pm by wilber »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #177 on: September 06, 2018, 08:03:40 pm »
This is more hyperbole...   Alberta and Canada doesn’t reserve the right to ram anything they want through BC without the proper processes being followed.   Up to now, this hasn’t happened for the pipeline.
Nobody even knows what the proper process is.  And the previous BC government approved the pipeline and the current one broke the agreement. And there are endless lawsuits from natives and environmentalists and NIMBYs.  The process is a complete circus and a total joke.   

You do realize that if the pipeline is shut down that Albertan tar sands will be shut down to the same degree, right?

Very little of the tar sands production goes through the existing Trans Mountain Pipeline.  Mostly the Trans Mountain is carrying refined products for Vancouverites, and crude oil for Burnaby's cute little refinery.

What shuts down in BC if the pipeline does?  A few tankers a day don’t come through?   A few maintenance jobs along the corridor are lost?  THe pipeline is no big deal to BC...  it’s a HUGE deal to Alberta.

I believe that the existing Trans Mountain pipeline represents only a fraction of Alberta's production, but supplies about 90% of the petroleum products used in BC.  So I think it would be a pretty HUGE deal for BC.  I walk to work, so I can get by. And I have firearms and a whole lot of ammo, so when the Mad Max style post-apocalyptic craziness breaks out, I'm ready for it.


 -k
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 08:05:58 pm by kimmy »
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #178 on: September 06, 2018, 10:35:03 pm »
Actually a lot would shut down. BC gets over 50% of its refined product from Edmonton refineries. US refineries don't have the capacity to replace what we get from Alberta and Americans aren't going to go short in order to supply BC. Even if they could, I guess you would rather have hundreds of tank trucks crossing the border every day carrying refined products than get them in a pipe from fellow Canadians.

So they lose BC as a customer and shut down production...   smart move!   ::)
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Courts quash Trans Mountain pipeline
« Reply #179 on: September 06, 2018, 11:08:03 pm »
So they lose BC as a customer and shut down production...   smart move!   ::)

Reminder, BC is a small portion of Alberta's total exports, but the Trans Mountain pipeline supplies 90% of BC's petroleum products.  We'll see who cries first. 

Remember that the day after Notley drafted her "turn off the taps" legislation, Horgan and Weaver were in the papers insisting that they'd have injunctions and court challenges ready to file against it.

And part of me really wants to see it happen, just to put an end once and for all to this ignorant bullshit about how BC doesn't need pipelines and BC doesn't need Alberta oil.  Turn off the taps for even two weeks and we will see how much you smarmy, smug lower mainland **** need Alberta oil.

 -k
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