Author Topic: What public service job  (Read 203 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 09:12:07 pm »
I don't get your response.  Cyber basically asks "what is worth" "what should things cost" and you come back saying some things cost too much, and others too little based on your own sense of things.

No, he didn't. He asked why the assumption that we pay too much rather than EVERYONE ELSE paying too little.
There would have to be an example of the superior policing, firefighting, ambulance service, bus service, teaching we get for our higher wages. I've never seen it. And if you pay significantly more than your competition but aren't getting anything better in the way of employees then you're heading for bankruptcy.

More importantly I thought I had already stated a job is worth whatever it costs to get a capable employee to do it, and not one cent more. If we lowered the pay rate for teachers, cops and firefighters by 10%-20% do you think the lines of applicants that stretch down the block would shrink so much we couldn't hire enough people? I don't.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 09:26:23 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Peter F

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 03:45:13 am »
...
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More importantly I thought I had already stated a job is worth whatever it costs to get a capable employee to do it, and not one cent more. If we lowered the pay rate for teachers, cops and firefighters by 10%-20% do you think the lines of applicants that stretch down the block would shrink so much we couldn't hire enough people? I don't.

Well, you don't, but others do. Others, in positions that deal with how much to pay, worry about retention. Sometimes. What policy would you like the government to put in place to satisfy your feeling that people earn too much?
Never mind. Already answered; 10-20%cut across the board and to hell with those in authority (not Sir John) who may or may not worry about retention issues and the costs of training new employees chosen from the lineups. 
  Their opinion on the matter is of no importance?
"Never take on the role of management"
-- C.A.W. Shop Steward's manual.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 06:24:54 am »
No, he didn't. He asked why the assumption that we pay too much rather than EVERYONE ELSE paying too little.
There would have to be an example of the superior policing, firefighting, ambulance service, bus service, teaching we get for our higher wages.

Say we're not getting superior services. That could mean that the others are making even less than they should.

I find it interesting that you say you believe in capitalism. You're comparing labour across different nations. Yet, you're staunchly opposed to the free movement of labourers between nations. That's not free-market capitalism. You believe in some other form of tightly regulated capitalism that benefits the employers, whom operate internationally yet doesn't allow the employees to operate internationally. It's an odd set of contradictory values, imo.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 10:36:06 am »
If people think they can make more money using their skills in a different country, why wouldn't they move?

My point is they can't, because we make more than anywhere else.

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But in any case, why shouldn't they be?  Is it because you think you pay too much in taxes?

Because there's something wrong with the optics of someone working two jobs with few benefits and a limited pension paying tax to support overpaid public servants with higher salaries and benefits than he has - especially where those are undeserved. I'm all for paying people with limited skill sets enough to ensure we have enough of them. I'm opposed to paying more than we have to in order to get enough capable employees to do a job. There's something wrong with the idea that if you go to a smaller urban center most of the people with the biggest houses and incomes will be cops, firefighters and teachers.

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All the people whose income you'd happily decrease also pay taxes.  They buy a lot of stuff with their discretionary income.

Yes, but all the money they pay in taxes comes from the tax money used to pay them. Your argument only functions where these employees are being paid a proper salary for the job we need done. If we're paying a lot more to them than is necessary or is deserved then it's simply wrong.

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Public service employees number over three million in Canada.  How do you suppose reducing the incomes of over three million Canadians would actually work out, in practice?

I don't think you understand. Government is a service. It's a costly service. Where it does what is needed doing that's fine. Where it does it efficiently that's great. But if its service grows in cost it becomes a burden on the economy and helps no one. Using your argument we could improve the economy and the country by doubling the salary of all the public servants. No, we're all better off where the service costs are minimized.

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You'd be wrong.  Australia, the Netherlands, the US and Belgium all pay their doctors more on average.

The figures they give are not believable. It says the figure for Canada is $107k for GPs and $161k for specialists. That sounds too low to me.

Keep in mind, the amount varies based on doctorsí specialties though: family physicians make about $271,000 while medical specialists make about $338,000 and surgical specialists earn $446,000.
https://globalnews.ca/news/2898641/how-much-is-your-doctor-making-what-you-need-to-know-about-canadas-physician-workforce/


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Really?  You think three million people make up the bulk of the middle class in a country of 36 million? 

There aren't 36 million workers. There are about 15 million.

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But aside from that, I thought everyone below middle class didn't pay enough taxes, or any, or something - so the government is supported almost entirely on the income level into which you (claim) you fall.  But look, today you are all worried about the 'lower income earners'.  Hahaha. 

No need to be snotty - though you always manage to. The statistics on who pays what comes straight from the government. So it's not a matter of my opinion. As for 'my claim' that I'm in the upper income bracket, anyone can claim anything over the internet. You can claim you\re not Muslim, for example. But I put it to you that I'd have little motivation to be bitching and complaining about taxes so much if I wasn't paying any.,
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 10:42:50 am »
Well, you don't, but others do. Others, in positions that deal with how much to pay, worry about retention.

Yeah, that's nonsense. In Ontario, for example, municipalities have been begging the province to do away with a mediation formula that has every municipal police and fire union going to mediation for contracts because the costs are driving them into bankruptcy. They want to pay a lot less but the mediator bases his assessment on whether some other department has a higher salary, then gives that. Which is why the police force in small towns earn the same salary as the cops in Toronto. Meanwhile in the UK, US and other jurisdictions, they seem able to recruit and retain cops with 2/3rds the salary of ours - somehow.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 10:46:24 am »
Say we're not getting superior services. That could mean that the others are making even less than they should.

I find it interesting that you say you believe in capitalism. You're comparing labour across different nations. Yet, you're staunchly opposed to the free movement of labourers between nations. That's not free-market capitalism. You believe in some other form of tightly regulated capitalism that benefits the employers, whom operate internationally yet doesn't allow the employees to operate internationally. It's an odd set of contradictory values, imo.

Untrue. First, I believe in Capitalism but not unrestrained Capitalism. Unrestrained Capitalism would be a nightmare. And since I'm strongly opposed to the TFWs(except farm workers) which benefit employers at the expense of workers, and also against the immigration of low-skilled people - which also benefits employers at the expensive lower skilled Canadian workers I don't see where there's a contradiction in my position. I think the market should control wages in both cases. If you can't find enough baristas or fish factory workers at what you're paying, then pay more. That goes hand in hand with us not paying more for cops, teachers, firefighters, nurses, bus drivers, etc., than we need to.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2017, 11:46:24 am »
Why are farm workers the exception? Itís funny how the one job we truly rely on to survive (food production) is treated the worst.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What public service job
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2017, 12:23:20 pm »
Why are farm workers the exception? Itís funny how the one job we truly rely on to survive (food production) is treated the worst.

Because I accept that given the seasonal nature of the job we aren't going to be able to recruit vast numbers of unworking city people to ship out to the farms to pick apples or whatever - work which is, as I understand it, extremely physically demanding, and which poor city people are both uninterested in and incapable of doing without a lot of exercise. If it was a steady, year round job I would think differently. I remember seeing a documentary on Mexican farm workers once, and the farmer paid pretty good wages, and sometimes got Americans interested to come out and work, but most of them quit after the first day or two. The guy who was doing the documentary tried to pick oranges with the farm workers and picked half as many and was barely able to move the next day.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum