Author Topic: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture  (Read 7083 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #180 on: June 08, 2021, 02:36:35 pm »
So in other words, you want them to smile, shut up and play nice and wait for Canada to resolve the many outstanding issues it has. Because that's worked so well for the last 150+ years.

Your reading comprehension is poor.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #181 on: June 08, 2021, 02:46:07 pm »
Your reading comprehension is poor.

What if it was your grandma’s brother who was buried in the yard of the school?  Would you just accept seeing a statue of the man responsible for the murder of your relatives?  Or would you maybe bust out the spray paint?
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #182 on: June 08, 2021, 03:07:49 pm »
What if it was your grandma’s brother who was buried in the yard of the school?  Would you just accept seeing a statue of the man responsible for the murder of your relatives?  Or would you maybe bust out the spray paint?

Huh?  I never commented on the statue being toppled. It was toppled by Antifa anarchists btw.  I commented on the hateful spraypaint, which isn't helpful, and is different than being angry.

Being angry because 215 dead kids were discovered is totally understandable, being angry because you want colonizers to "go home" and you hate them and you want to "cancel canada" is also understandable but isn't helping them or the situation.

I'm fine with removing the statue, even changing the university name, but it should be done by the university.  The vandals, who are largely antifa (the groups have posted it on twitter and FB), should be arrested and charged, and so should anyone responsible for abuse in the residential schools.
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Offline Dia

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #183 on: June 08, 2021, 03:22:39 pm »
I never said for people to give up on land claims.  As I've said, justice should be served.

This week the statue of Ryerson at Ryerson University was toppled by protestors.  Behind the statue they spray-painted "Go Home!  Back where you came from. Me and my girls hate colonizers".  This kind of useless hatred is what I'm talking about.  Nobody is "going back home".  Canada has been colonized so we need to learn to live together while giving justice to those wronged.  Lots of #CancelCanadaDay hashtags are going around too, it's not productive, in fact its counter-productive and divisive.  You can celebrate your country while also condemning parts of its past or present.

I think you make more sense than not.  While I'm heartbroken about the kids that were found, I am also cognizant of the fact that at least, to some degree, the motives for the residential schools were 'good'.  Still, the government and church both failed miserably in their execution of this 'good intent'.  One can forgive ignorance, to a certain extent, but we weren't so barbarous at that point that people couldn't see the cruelty of dragging children from their parents or belief that beating children into submission was necessary.  Add to that the rampant sexual abuse that so many turned a blind eye to, the huge death toll of these kids, and the 'nutrition experiments' (link below) carried out on residential students between 1942 and 1952, and it's hard to belief that 'good intent' really was motivating the authorities.  It may have been a handy rationalization for people who felt a twinge of conscience, and looked good in the newspaper, but from here it looks like nothing more than virtue signalling.

I get angry when people deny just how devastating this was to First Nations; when they declare that these people should just get over it, that we did them a favor by bringing them into the "civilized" world, that we owe them nothing and their current circumstances - if they are poor, homeless or drug/alcohol addicted - is entirely of their own doing.

Apparently we were also involuntarily sterilizing First Nations women as late as 2018.   https://ijrcenter.org/forced-sterilization-of-indigenous-women-in-canada/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941673/ - nutrition experiments

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #184 on: June 08, 2021, 03:50:58 pm »
Your reading comprehension is poor.

Nope, it's bang on.

In one breath you say"justice should be served" and in the next you say "we need to learn to live together" and get into tone-policing protests, which displays a stunning lack of awareness of how the former drives the latter while also being an incredibly privileged take from someone with no skin in the game.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #185 on: June 08, 2021, 03:54:08 pm »
Huh?  I never commented on the statue being toppled. It was toppled by Antifa anarchists btw.  I commented on the hateful spraypaint, which isn't helpful, and is different than being angry.

Being angry because 215 dead kids were discovered is totally understandable, being angry because you want colonizers to "go home" and you hate them and you want to "cancel canada" is also understandable but isn't helping them or the situation.

I'm fine with removing the statue, even changing the university name, but it should be done by the university.  The vandals, who are largely antifa (the groups have posted it on twitter and FB), should be arrested and charged, and so should anyone responsible for abuse in the residential schools.

Honestly? Boo-fu*king-hoo. No progress has ever been made by people being nice.




Offline Dia

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #186 on: June 08, 2021, 04:01:55 pm »
Nope, it's bang on.

In one breath you say"justice should be served" and in the next you say "we need to learn to live together" and get into tone-policing protests, which displays a stunning lack of awareness of how the former drives the latter while also being an incredibly privileged take from someone with no skin in the game.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.  A meme I saw yesterday, posted by a relative who is First Nations said "The fact that indigenuous people seek recognition and not revenge should tell you exactly which culture is the 'civilized' one".  Simplistic (as most memes are), but I think it does make the point that serving justice and getting along are simultaneously possible.

I don't agree 100% with GG all the time, but I think overall he presents a balanced view of the issue.  As a country, Canada does have some work to properly amend our past with First Nations, and that we do need to move on - together.   That is the message I most often hear from First Nations (though no doubt some would choose revenge over recognition) - they don't hold us, as in this generation, "responsible" for what our forebears did.  But we, in this generation, must acknowledge what happened in the past, learn and understand how it has impacted First Nations over generations, and do what we can to mitigate that damage in the present.

Edited to add:  I understand why the statue was torn down, though I don't agree with it; still, people will be people and emotions run high.  Its unfortunate that those who lack understanding will use that to dismiss the protests/protesters.  Any removal of these kinds of symbols should be done after calm discussion with all stakeholders, and not in the heat of a demonstration.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 04:05:59 pm by JuniperRose »
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #187 on: June 08, 2021, 04:15:26 pm »
When you say "we" have to set aside our anger move on, that's exactly what you're doing.



No, we means we, everyone.

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You can be angry and still be part of the solution. Anger is productive, anger motivates.

Man, respectability politics are the worst.


There are good reasons for anger but it is rarely productive, it just makes people fell better. Anything lasting has to be based on mutual respect. 

Don't forget but put the anger aside.

I think it is going to be a hard process for everyone but there has probably never been a better time or reason to start. Hope we don't blow it.

"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #188 on: June 08, 2021, 04:17:54 pm »
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.  A meme I saw yesterday, posted by a relative who is First Nations said "The fact that indigenuous people seek recognition and not revenge should tell you exactly which culture is the 'civilized' one".  Simplistic (as most memes are), but I think it does make the point that serving justice and getting along are simultaneously possible.

I guess i don't understand the complaint about angry rhetoric. I haven't seen anything from Indigenous people saying they don't want to find solutions, but they don't trust the government and institutions that brought us to this point and I can't say i blame them.

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I don't agree 100% with GG all the time, but I think overall he presents a balanced view of the issue.  As a country, Canada does have some work to properly amend our past with First Nations, and that we do need to move on - together.   That is the message I most often hear from First Nations (though no doubt some would choose revenge over recognition) - they don't hold us, as in this generation, "responsible" for what our forebears did. But we, in this generation, must acknowledge what happened in the past, learn and understand how it has impacted First Nations over generations, and do what we can to mitigate that damage in the present.

Of course. But it takes some big brass balls to say "we need to come together to find solutions" while simultaneously scolding and tone-policing one side.

I think Canadians more than most are comfortable in their ignorance of what this country is really about so getting confronted with the reality that not everyone buys the nationalist Tim Horton's commercial version of who we are is jarring and makes people defensive. But the answer isn't for the people being confrontational to stand down, it's for the rest of us to wake the **** up.


Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #189 on: June 08, 2021, 04:20:28 pm »
No, we means we, everyone.

Weird, because I keep seeing one pov being singled out for being angry.

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There are good reasons for anger but it is rarely productive, it just makes people fell better. Anything lasting has to be based on mutual respect. 

On the contrary, anger can be extremely productive. You think we'd even be having some of these debates if people weren't taking to the streets and knocking down statues but sending sternly worded letters to their MP and local newspapers?
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #190 on: June 08, 2021, 04:28:16 pm »
Weird, because I keep seeing one pov being singled out for being angry.



I'm not singling out anyone, just saying that anger can only take you so far and after that it becomes an obstacle.

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On the contrary, anger can be extremely productive. You think we'd even be having some of these debates if people weren't taking to the streets and knocking down statues but sending sternly worded letters to their MP and local newspapers?

But once the statues are knocked down and the letters written, then what? That's the easy stuff, someone has to do the hard stuff and actually deal with the issues.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #191 on: June 08, 2021, 05:50:30 pm »
Nope, it's bang on.

In one breath you say"justice should be served" and in the next you say "we need to learn to live together" and get into tone-policing protests, which displays a stunning lack of awareness of how the former drives the latter while also being an incredibly privileged take from someone with no skin in the game.

Anger is a part of any healing process.  My point was we can't live our entire lives being angry, especially at things that can't be changed, like wanting colonizers to go home.  If eyeball wants to spend the rest of his life being angry at Canada and disavowing it the only thing that will do is harm himself.

If he's angry that 215 dead kids were discovered and wants justice I support that, it should make us all sad and angry.  I'm not talking about a bit of anger or outrage I'm talking about long-lasting bitterness and resentment that eats away at us deep inside.
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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #192 on: June 08, 2021, 06:58:21 pm »
What if it was your grandma’s brother who was buried in the yard of the school?  Would you just accept seeing a statue of the man responsible for the murder of your relatives?  Or would you maybe bust out the spray paint?
Do you consider every child that died of diphtheria, tuberculosis,  measles, etc. to have been murdered?

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #193 on: June 08, 2021, 07:04:15 pm »
Do you consider every child that died of diphtheria, tuberculosis,  measles, etc. to have been murdered?

No.  But I consider their bodies to be desecrated after they were kidnapped and, likely, brutalized.  And not telling their family what happened to them was also a crime.   And then these crimes were covered up. 

But, no…. Not all of them were murdered. Maybe none of them were murdered.  I don’t recall mentioning murder, actually.  Did I mention murder in any of my previous posts?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 07:26:11 pm by the_squid »
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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #194 on: June 08, 2021, 07:49:36 pm »
Uh...the one I quoted.