Author Topic: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture  (Read 7082 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2021, 05:32:09 am »
1. Confederation was done primarily as a security pact between a bunch of the colonies at the time to fend off the manifest destiny of the US, who at the time had a massive standing army in the north and nothing do with it following the end of the US civil war a couple of years prior, and only decades prior annexed Texas etc from Mexico via warfare.  The US bought Alaska from Russia in 1867...coincidence?  Macdonald and co. saved much of Canada, including natives, from US invasion.  Yes we should consider that an achievement.

2.You're also simplifying how Canada was colonized.  Parts of it were stolen, parts of it were treatied away, the vast majority of it never had a native step foot on it because pre-Columbus they traveled by waterway and never had horses to explore inland.  Given the competitive nature of European empires at the time who were scrambling against each other for wealth and land power because they were scared to death due to being constantly at war with each other, colonization of Canada was inevitable in some form or another.  If not by France and Britain, then Russia, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Japan, or China etc.

3.This isn't any different than many of the different native groups themselves pre-Columbus who formed alliances with each other and were constantly at war with each other, raping and pillaging and stealing each other's land and some (Aztecs, Incas) forming their own empires.

4. Hundreds of years ago it was a war of all against all for survival.  The powerful took from the weak.  Many, many horrible things happened.

5. I think to heal everybody needs to acknowledge and accept what happened, bad and good and everything between, give everyone what they need to thrive, be it land or money or infrastructure or rights, or whatever, and move forward together.

1. 2. 3. 4. I pretty much agree with this.  I read a book about the early days of Andrew Jackson.  He was a psycho, but his youth was spent in a land immersed in constant guerilla warfare.  The early history of North America and the wars in the east are not covered much because there is no moral centre, and the details are too complicated and brutal to teach children. 

So we come up with a moral take based on the eventually victory and success of the European conquerers... and that moral take is based on your politics, but inconsistent no matter what your politics.

5. Wow.  What a world it would be if we could speak the truth.  I think your project sounds magnificent, because it offers truth as a condition of true healing.  Kind of like in the same way Communism and capitalism can't co-exist, I can't see how this take could coexist with our current world.

After all, the so-called Land of the Free is banning the teaching of Critical Race Theory right now.  So you want to bundle white guilt, native guilt, and a huge settling of scores unceded land and so on....

In a way it has to happen, but in another way it can't.  Would you start a separate thread on the topic ?

Offline Boges

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2021, 09:21:55 am »
I'm not minimizing the hurt and pain all the atrocities done to FN people by Canadian governments of the past.

But Canada is currently a country of immigrants. People came here for a better life from their own persecution and hardship. They didn't come here to remove the FN Culture from them.

This "Go Home Colonizer" language isn't helpful.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #92 on: June 03, 2021, 09:32:47 am »
I'm not minimizing the hurt and pain all the atrocities done to FN people by Canadian governments of the past.

But Canada is currently a country of immigrants. People came here for a better life from their own persecution and hardship. They didn't come here to remove the FN Culture from them.

This "Go Home Colonizer" language isn't helpful.

They are still coming for the same reasons. Should we now be anti immigrant?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2021, 10:03:05 am »
I'm not minimizing the hurt and pain all the atrocities done to FN people by Canadian governments of the past.

But Canada is currently a country of immigrants. People came here for a better life from their own persecution and hardship. They didn't come here to remove the FN Culture from them.

This "Go Home Colonizer" language isn't helpful.

But that's exactly what the government did in their name so that those immigrants would have a place to go. Whether anyone intentionally took part in the displacement and oppression of the Indigenous peoples or not is irrelevant when they still benefited from it and continue to do so to this day.
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Offline MH

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2021, 10:20:54 am »

And having an open conversation along those lines is a good idea to me. 

Acknowledging that the land was once sparsely attended by first nations, as a bridge to taking steps to reduce the hurt - even symbolically.  And setting up projects to actually fix things.


Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2021, 11:00:23 am »
But that's exactly what the government did in their name so that those immigrants would have a place to go. Whether anyone intentionally took part in the displacement and oppression of the Indigenous peoples or not is irrelevant when they still benefited from it and continue to do so to this day.

While does the guilt stop. 300 years, 500 years, 1000 years? More?
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2021, 11:06:47 am »
While does the guilt stop. 300 years, 500 years, 1000 years? More?
How far into the future does the pain of the innocent radiate?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 11:09:55 am by eyeball »

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2021, 11:14:25 am »
While does the guilt stop. 300 years, 500 years, 1000 years? More?

Why are you talking about guilt? No one is talking about guilt. Guilt is an unproductive feeling, it doesn't solve anything and no one is asking settlers to go around in sackcloth and ashes.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2021, 11:59:30 am »
Why are you talking about guilt? No one is talking about guilt. Guilt is an unproductive feeling, it doesn't solve anything and no one is asking settlers to go around in sackcloth and ashes.

Why are you talking about apologies if there is no guilt involved?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2021, 12:04:05 pm »
Why are you talking about apologies if there is no guilt involved?

Youíre confusing feelings of guilt within an individual and the culpability of Canada (and churches) in the harm to indigenous people.  You donít need to personally apologize for anything.  Canada certainly does as part of the role in taking responsibility for what has occurred. 
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2021, 12:20:00 pm »
Youíre confusing feelings of guilt within an individual and the culpability of Canada (and churches) in the harm to indigenous people.  You donít need to personally apologize for anything.  Canada certainly does as part of the role in taking responsibility for what has occurred.

We are apologizing all the time. What does an apology from a PM mean if they aren't speaking for you? We can acknowledge bad things happened in the past and try and make them right without taking personal responsibility for them.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2021, 12:54:40 pm »
Quote
We could mount pressure groups across this country on many areas where there have been historic wrongs.

Quote
I do not think the purpose of a government is to right the past. It cannot rewrite history. It is our purpose to be just in our time.

Pierre Elliott Trudeau
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2021, 12:58:31 pm »
We are apologizing all the time. What does an apology from a PM mean if they aren't speaking for you? We can acknowledge bad things happened in the past and try and make them right without taking personal responsibility for them.

The PMís apology is on behalf of Canada.  Please provide and example of how you are being forced to take personal responsibility for these things.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2021, 01:02:17 pm »
The PMís apology is on behalf of Canada.  Please provide and example of how you are being forced to take personal responsibility for these things.

What is Canada if it isn't its citizens?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #104 on: June 03, 2021, 01:08:12 pm »
What is Canada if it isn't its citizens?

SeriouslyÖ. What a dumb question.  You donít understand what a country is and the difference between a country apologizing versus individuals apologizing? 

Now youíre just playing stupid word games. 

Maybe answer the question I asked and we can explore the differences. 
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