Author Topic: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture  (Read 7081 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2021, 11:15:08 am »
I would’ve preferred a plaque go up, or another monument giving some context.  Or, just take it down.  I don’t really care.

These people are in history books, they’re in museums….   Why do they really need to be on the street corner anyways?

There are over 20 statues and monuments on Parliament Hill. Should they all come down?

How often do you think the average person goes to a museum or reads a history book? Seeing a statue or monument might actually prompt them to learn more about someone.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2021, 11:19:38 am »
There are over 20 statues and monuments on Parliament Hill. Should they all come down?

Don’t know…. Maybe. 

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How often do you think the average person goes to a museum or reads a history book? Seeing a statue or monument might actually prompt them to learn more about someone.

The ‘average person’ who doesn’t read or go to museums shouldn’t be encouraged to get their history from statues on street corners.  Their view is going to be rather incomplete, to say the least.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2021, 11:21:54 am »
There are over 20 statues and monuments on Parliament Hill. Should they all come down?

Depends on the statue.

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How often do you think the average person goes to a museum or reads a history book? Seeing a statue or monument might actually prompt them to learn more about someone.

Would you accept a compromise that kept the statues but added the words "this person was also a huge racist" to the didactic panel?

Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2021, 11:43:14 am »
Depends on the statue.



So you confirm my statement about judging previous generations by your standards. History will do the same to you.

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Would you accept a compromise that kept the statues but added the words "this person was also a huge racist" to the didactic panel?

No I would not. I would be in favour of a plaque that laid out the persons accomplishments both the good and the ugly. People can decide for themselves. You just want to use statues as a different kind of propaganda.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2021, 11:55:15 am »
So you confirm my statement about judging previous generations by your standards. History will do the same to you.

Guess I better not be a genocidal piece of **** then!

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No I would not. I would be in favour of a plaque that laid out the persons accomplishments both the good and the ugly. People can decide for themselves. You just want to use statues as a different kind of propaganda.

Statues by nature are propaganda tools, pick your poison.

If people want an even assessment of a historical figure's accomplishments and legacy they aren't going to get it reading a 100 word plaque.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2021, 11:58:54 am »
Guess I better not be a genocidal piece of **** then!

Statues by nature are propaganda tools, pick your poison.

If people want an even assessment of a historical figure's accomplishments and legacy they aren't going to get it reading a 100 word plaque.

There doesn't have to be a 100 word plaque, just a list.
You are just interested in your own biases, not any kind of balance.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2021, 12:32:19 pm »
There doesn't have to be a 100 word plaque, just a list.
You are just interested in your own biases, not any kind of balance.

LOL "balance". The notion that these hagiographic graven images in prominent public places can be balanced by just tweaking the verbiage is moronic.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2021, 04:16:29 pm »
No, they clearly wanted to ethnically cleanse them by assimilating them.  I quoted JAM directly earlier saying exactly that.

I will concede it was the thing to do back then (they even wanted to assimilate French Canadians at some point) but don't kid yourself, it was NOT about helping anyone but themselves.

I don't see Macdonald saying he wants to ethnically cleanse them.  That means to remove natives physically from Canada.  His actions were essentially what we now call cultural genocide, for the supposed sake of their education/welfare.  He wanted to remove all Indian culture from the kids because he saw the parents and their native culture and way of life as savage.  This went on in many European colonies throughout the world, the "white man's burden" to "save" the heathen savages, many times led by Christian churches/missionaries.

Clearly many of the schools were run by racists and/or cruel people who didn't care much about their physical welfare either.  Macdonald was very likely a racist himself given his comments.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 04:33:04 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2021, 04:22:03 pm »
Every monster in history can be said to have had good intentions if you parse them finely enough. That's not an excuse.

Well yes exactly.  Maybe not every monster but many.  There are no excuses for Macdonald's actions and words, it was bad policy.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2021, 04:28:27 pm »
I would’ve preferred a plaque go up, or another monument giving some context.  Or, just take it down.  I don’t really care.

These people are in history books, they’re in museums….   Why do they really need to be on the street corner anyways?

People used to think "Oh wow, Sir John Mac led the founding of the country".  At the time, something to celebrate, and still is.  But now we know it's more like "Sir John Mac led the founding of the country and started the horrible residential school system".  He did both great and terrible things.

I think to some people he's still great, and to others he's nothing but an evil monster, and the truth lies somewhere in between.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2021, 04:29:07 pm »
 :D
LOL "balance". The notion that these hagiographic graven images in prominent public places can be balanced by just tweaking the verbiage is moronic.

Balance is not your opinion or mine.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2021, 04:49:35 pm »
I don't see Macdonald saying he wants to ethnically cleanse them.  That means to remove natives physically from Canada.  His actions were essentially what we now call cultural genocide, for the supposed sake of their education/welfare.  He wanted to remove all Indian culture from the kids because he saw the parents and their native culture and way of life as savage.  This went on in many European colonies throughout the world, the "white man's burden" to "save" the heathen savages, many times led by Christian churches/missionaries.

Clearly many of the schools were run by racists and/or cruel people who didn't care much about their physical welfare either.  Macdonald was very likely a racist himself given his comments.

I think it’s worse than that…. You’re white-washing how the country was founded, and stolen, from natives who were seen as subhuman.

It’s not as simple as saying that the founding of Canada was great but he also did bad things.

The founding of Canada was done in a terrible and atrocious manner.  Until Canadians can reconcile that fact, I think good relations with indigenous communities will likely not be possible.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2021, 05:55:37 pm »
I think it’s worse than that…. You’re white-washing how the country was founded, and stolen, from natives who were seen as subhuman.

It’s not as simple as saying that the founding of Canada was great but he also did bad things.

The founding of Canada was done in a terrible and atrocious manner.  Until Canadians can reconcile that fact, I think good relations with indigenous communities will likely not be possible.

Confederation was done primarily as a security pact between a bunch of the colonies at the time to fend off the manifest destiny of the US, who at the time had a massive standing army in the north and nothing do with it following the end of the US civil war a couple of years prior, and only decades prior annexed Texas etc from Mexico via warfare.  The US bought Alaska from Russia in 1867...coincidence?  Macdonald and co. saved much of Canada, including natives, from US invasion.  Yes we should consider that an achievement.

You're also simplifying how Canada was colonized.  Parts of it were stolen, parts of it were treatied away, the vast majority of it never had a native step foot on it because pre-Columbus they traveled by waterway and never had horses to explore inland.  Given the competitive nature of European empires at the time who were scrambling against each other for wealth and land power because they were scared to death due to being constantly at war with each other, colonization of Canada was inevitable in some form or another.  If not by France and Britain, then Russia, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Japan, or China etc.

This isn't any different than many of the different native groups themselves pre-Columbus who formed alliances with each other and were constantly at war with each other, raping and pillaging and stealing each other's land and some (Aztecs, Incas) forming their own empires.

Hundreds of years ago it was a war of all against all for survival.  The powerful took from the weak.  Many, many horrible things happened.

I think to heal everybody needs to acknowledge and accept what happened, bad and good and everything between, give everyone what they need to thrive, be it land or money or infrastructure or rights, or whatever, and move forward together.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2021, 06:28:09 pm »
:D
Balance is not your opinion or mine.

You're ducking the point that the statues themselves are the problem, not the information presented on them

Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2021, 07:39:46 pm »
You're ducking the point that the statues themselves are the problem, not the information presented on them

So let’s get rid of them all but I’ve already addressed that.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC