Author Topic: Canada gunz  (Read 1497 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #150 on: September 11, 2020, 06:57:40 am »
Given the ease of smuggling guns across the border, it's hard to picture it making much impact. Most gun crime in big cities already involves US sourced guns.

Also, the very large majority of gun violence in Canada involves handguns, and the gun ban doesn't actually ban any handguns, so the notion that the gun ban will change anything on that front is fanciful at best.  Indeed, I was reading yesterday that  Toronto's shootings are actually up this year.  Banning "military and assault style weapons" doesn't reduce gun violence in Canada, because nobody in Canada actually gets shot with "military and assault style weapons".



 -k
Two things:

1) Ease of smuggling doesn't make it easy nor easier than having a large domestic supply to steal and move, unhindered by regulation. Smuggling is costly and risky, which means the black market value of those firearms goes up dramatically. Higher cost means more difficult access.

2) Yes the majority of "gun violence" in general does involve handguns, so are you advocating we have stricter regulations on those? Because I'm all for it. However, I doubt that's what you're implying. So what we're talking about here isn't general "gun violence" nor is that why this legislation was created. This legislation was created to make it more difficult to carry out mass murders. Those rarely involve handguns.

3) Lastly, we're never going to have an "all or nothing" solution, which is the implied solution in your arguments. The government can only mitigate harm and the steps they're taking are designed to make it markedly more difficult to get the weapons that have been used in mass murders. They can never and will never be able to make it absolutely impossible.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 06:59:48 am by cybercoma »
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Offline waldo

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #151 on: September 11, 2020, 10:24:07 am »

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #152 on: September 11, 2020, 01:20:28 pm »
I mean, I'm sure there's some population level relationship between poverty and gun crimes, but mass shooting events seem to be largely perpetrated by people who are neither uneducated nor living in severe poverty. Emphasis on "seem" because I haven't looked into the data.

Nevertheless, these strict gun bans are targeting mass murders. The other types of gun control primarily address domestic violence and suicide (e.g., guns need to be locked in a cabinet with another lock on the triggers and separate from ammo--it's a hassle to get the gun out so you're less likely to pull it out and just shoot someone in the heat of an argument). In any case, gun control works according to the numbers when you compare jurisdictions with each other (those with restrictions against those without) and even within themselves (before and after regulations).

I agree with this, and I also agree with strong gun regulation.

As we saw though, some of the guns the NS mass shooter had were illegally obtained (if i'm not mistaken).  So we have a complex problem that gun regulations do not do enough to resolve.  The problem is it's much harder to catch guns smuggled at the border or shipping ports than it is to ban/restrict guns.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #153 on: September 13, 2020, 04:03:30 pm »
1) Ease of smuggling doesn't make it easy nor easier than having a large domestic supply to steal and move, unhindered by regulation. Smuggling is costly and risky, which means the black market value of those firearms goes up dramatically. Higher cost means more difficult access.

It's not in evidence that there's a "large domestic supply" of the guns that have been banned. 80,000 AR-15 type rifles in Canada might sound like a lot, but in a country of 37 million people, finding a house that has one and breaking in and stealing it might be like finding a needle in a haystack.   And movement of guns is certainly not unhindered by regulation in Canada. If you buy a restricted gun and you sell it to somebody who isn't allowed to have it, you're going to prison. 

As you point out in point #2, this measure is aimed toward mass shooting events, not the kind of gang-related shootings that constitute most of Canada's gun violence.  And as you point out to Coonlight in your later post:
I mean, I'm sure there's some population level relationship between poverty and gun crimes, but mass shooting events seem to be largely perpetrated by people who are neither uneducated nor living in severe poverty.

So, it seems to me that whether this nudges up the street price of an AR-15 a few bucks doesn't really matter much.

2) Yes the majority of "gun violence" in general does involve handguns, so are you advocating we have stricter regulations on those? Because I'm all for it. However, I doubt that's what you're implying. So what we're talking about here isn't general "gun violence" nor is that why this legislation was created. This legislation was created to make it more difficult to carry out mass murders. Those rarely involve handguns.

I'm not sure that's true.  While the headline grabbing incidents may use long guns, I am not sure that's the case in general.  I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the Surrey Six shooting was carried out with a handgun.  Toronto's Danforth shooting was carried out with a handgun.  It's quite possible that the first crime scene of Gabriel Wortman's rampage (where he shot 6 people at the house party he had left then returned to) was carried out with a handgun (but they won't tell us for sure).

But even if it's supportable to claim that mass murders most commonly use an "assault style rifle", that's hardly a prerequisite.  Somebody who has fantasies about killing a whole bunch of people might think  "I was going to use an AR-15, but now I can't get one so the plan is off" but instead he's probably thinking "I can't get an AR-15 so I'll find an alternative." An alternative might be a handgun in each pocket, it might be some other gun that's suitable for shooting people, or it might be a rental van.


Two things:

3) Lastly, we're never going to have an "all or nothing" solution, which is the implied solution in your arguments. The government can only mitigate harm and the steps they're taking are designed to make it markedly more difficult to get the weapons that have been used in mass murders. They can never and will never be able to make it absolutely impossible.

There's never going to be a 100% successful solution, but the measures we have in place already work extremely well.  Canada's existing measures already mitigate harm to an exceptional degree. There's no perfect solution, but less than two hundred gun homicides per year in a country of 37 million people has to be regarded as tremendously successful.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #154 on: September 13, 2020, 04:11:33 pm »
no - the waldo referenced BuffaloGal's broader pro-firearms activism - it's your desperate play that wants to target your vindictiveness toward the recent gun control action. But surely you're not questioning the impact shooting injuries/deaths have upon the public health system - are you?

You're saying she supports hunting and sport-shooting as well as the recent petition against the gun ban?  Okay, I wasn't aware of that.

So what?  Hunting and sport shooting have negligible impact on public health.   They're among the safest sports. Skateboarding costs the public health system more money than hunting or sport shooting.



 -k
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Offline waldo

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #155 on: February 22, 2021, 01:36:02 pm »
in the news, the National Firearms Association that claims to be, "the leading voice for firearms rights", in Canada:

a House of Commons committee will be asked Monday (today) to censure the National Firearms Association (NFA) over comments the associationís president made in a recent conference call... comments that came the day after the Trudeau Liberal government introduced new firearms legislation that proposes a buyback program for about 1,500 different firearms... models that the government last May classified as prohibited - the NFA opposes that legislation.

Quote from: Sheldon Clare, president of the National Firearms Association
If they think that I have advocated violence in any way, they should have me charged. And I certainly have not. Iíve merely related comments from upset people who have a real big problem with tyranny. And I think that the virtue-signaling woke liberal left has a problem with being called out as being tyrants.



the NFA that has been preparing to run ďcustom attack adsĒ against Liberal members of Parliament it hopes to help defeat in the next general election... most notably, a vocal critic of the NFA, Liberal MP Pam Damoff (Ontario riding of Oakville North ó Burlington). And you Erin O'Foole, what say you about the NFA policy/practice - what say you, hey?


Offline wilber

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #156 on: February 22, 2021, 01:48:40 pm »
Well there is some truth to that first cartoon. If someone doesn't have a PAL and possesses a newly restricted weapon, how will anyone know about it until after they use it. These new laws are aimed at legal gun owners, not gang bangers.
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Offline Mr. Perfect

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #157 on: February 22, 2021, 02:52:03 pm »
Well there is some truth to that first cartoon. If someone doesn't have a PAL and possesses a newly restricted weapon, how will anyone know about it until after they use it. These new laws are aimed at legal gun owners, not gang bangers.

If you donít have a PAL, then you canít own any guns.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #158 on: February 22, 2021, 03:55:07 pm »
You're saying she supports hunting and sport-shooting as well as the recent petition against the gun ban?  Okay, I wasn't aware of that.

So what?  Hunting and sport shooting have negligible impact on public health.   They're among the safest sports. Skateboarding costs the public health system more money than hunting or sport shooting.

If you want to be a sport shooter you should have to go to the range and borrow a gun that the range owns.  It's a pretty stupid sport.  In fact it may be the dumbest sport on the face of the planet.

I don't have a problem with hunters or farmers or a dude living in the mountains with cougars and bears who needs a rifle.  Other than that the people who own guns are typically low-IQ morons, wannabe tough guys, and/or gang bangers and drug dealers and I don't care about their gun rights.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline wilber

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #159 on: February 22, 2021, 04:37:42 pm »
If you want to be a sport shooter you should have to go to the range and borrow a gun that the range owns.  It's a pretty stupid sport.  In fact it may be the dumbest sport on the face of the planet.



It's as stupid as bowling in rented shoes, skiing on rented skis, golfing with rented clubs. They all suck.
 What's your point?

Quote
I don't have a problem with hunters or farmers or a dude living in the mountains with cougars and bears who needs a rifle.  Other than that the people who own guns are typically low-IQ morons, wannabe tough guys, and/or gang bangers and drug dealers and I don't care about their gun rights.

That hasn't been my experience, I don't think you know much about gun owners, you have just made up your mind.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 05:09:03 pm by wilber »
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #160 on: February 22, 2021, 05:11:29 pm »
If you donít have a PAL, then you canít own any guns.
Not legally but that won't stop a lot of people, including gang bangers and would be mass murderers.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #161 on: February 22, 2021, 06:06:37 pm »
It's as stupid as bowling in rented shoes, skiing on rented skis, golfing with rented clubs. They all suck.
 What's your point?

Bowling shoes aren't designed to kill human beings.  I don't care about anyone's right to own a handgun or semi-auto for target practice.

But I also know illegal weapons in the hands of criminals are a bigger problem.

Quote
That hasn't been my experience, I don't think you know much about gun owners, you have just made up your mind.

I have many gun owners in my family.  They're all hunters.  No issues with them.  I know a few people who own guns because they like to pretend they're in the military or something.  These people are morons IMO and their rights to these guns are irrelevant.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #162 on: February 22, 2021, 07:49:51 pm »
Bowling shoes aren't designed to kill human beings.  I don't care about anyone's right to own a handgun or semi-auto for target practice.



Just because you don't care about a particular right isn't enough reason enough to abolish it. Besides, owning a gun isn't a right, there are lots of limitations.
I live two miles from the border, there is no way to keep illegal guns from crossing it. I'm not a gun owner but this whole exercise is just theatre, forecast to cost $600 million, but if it is anything like the gun registry it will cost a couple of billion.
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Offline Mr. Perfect

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #163 on: February 22, 2021, 08:27:46 pm »
Owning a gun is not a right in Canada.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Canada gunz
« Reply #164 on: February 23, 2021, 01:22:43 am »
If you donít have a PAL, then you canít own any guns.

Gabe Wortman didn't have a PAL...

 -k
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