Author Topic: Can someone lend me a fork?  (Read 767 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2019, 01:09:55 am »
I suspect Cyber posted that pic as a reminder as to where most of our waste plastic ends up.

Most of Canada's waste plastic does not end up in a lake/river of plastic, at least as far as I know.

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Hiding it underground in a landfill as Tim suggests does not remove the toxicity.

It's not toxic if it's in a landfill, which have linings to prevent the waste from seeping into the ground.  At least for 100 years until those linings break down, but maybe they replace the linings/landfills i'm not sure.  Now, it doesn't remove the waste thats for sure, it just stores it.

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We cut down trees to make lumber everyday and then we reforest. No doubt some animals get displaced during the process, but they can relocate without getting a gut full of toxic chemicals in their guts as they do

Do replanted trees grow as fast as we cut them down?  Is it sustainable?  Or is it net-negative trees even with replanting over the longterm? As you say, bamboo might be good since it grows fast.  With landfills though, you also have to destroy natural habitat to create them.

These are questions we're not knowledgeable enough to answer, but we should be asking the questions is the point.  I don't care whether landfill plastic or paper is the best for the environment, i just want to use whichever is indeed better for the environment.  If you're going to argue paper or bamboo is better overall for environment, you have to provide scientific research proving that.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2019, 02:04:42 am »
Most of Canada's waste plastic does not end up in a lake/river of plastic, at least as far as I know.

It's not toxic if it's in a landfill, which have linings to prevent the waste from seeping into the ground.  At least for 100 years until those linings break down, but maybe they replace the linings/landfills i'm not sure.  Now, it doesn't remove the waste thats for sure, it just stores it.

Do replanted trees grow as fast as we cut them down?  Is it sustainable?  Or is it net-negative trees even with replanting over the longterm? As you say, bamboo might be good since it grows fast.  With landfills though, you also have to destroy natural habitat to create them.

These are questions we're not knowledgeable enough to answer, but we should be asking the questions is the point.  I don't care whether landfill plastic or paper is the best for the environment, i just want to use whichever is indeed better for the environment.  If you're going to argue paper or bamboo is better overall for environment, you have to provide scientific research proving that.

Sorry but evidence shows plastic releases toxins, even if it is in a landfill, and which can be seen as leaching into the groundwater. Aside from that, a lot of garbage containing lots of plastic is burned which releases a lot of airborne toxins. Burning bamboo isn't totally environmentally friendly either, but much better than plastic. And I have wooden spoons in my kitchen drawer I have been using for years. Plastics go in the garbage daily. Fairly easy to discern the difference in environmental impact.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2019, 10:03:50 pm »
Sorry but evidence shows plastic releases toxins, even if it is in a landfill, and which can be seen as leaching into the groundwater.

Link?

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Aside from that, a lot of garbage containing lots of plastic is burned which releases a lot of airborne toxins. Burning bamboo isn't totally environmentally friendly either, but much better than plastic.

A lot of garbage containing lots of plastic is being burned in Canada?

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And I have wooden spoons in my kitchen drawer I have been using for years. Plastics go in the garbage daily. Fairly easy to discern the difference in environmental impact.

Those wooden spoons are designed to be reusable.  You can make plastic spoons that are reusable.  We're talking about single-use products.  When you go to a fast food/take-out food joint & they need to give you cutlery or containers we need to make it out of something.

Again, you or I don't have the info the calculate the total impact on plastic vs wood vs whatever, so this discussion is pointless unless we have data, otherwise we;re just talking out of our asses.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Omni

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2019, 10:38:41 pm »
Link?

A lot of garbage containing lots of plastic is being burned in Canada?

Those wooden spoons are designed to be reusable.  You can make plastic spoons that are reusable.  We're talking about single-use products.  When you go to a fast food/take-out food joint & they need to give you cutlery or containers we need to make it out of something.

Again, you or I don't have the info the calculate the total impact on plastic vs wood vs whatever, so this discussion is pointless unless we have data, otherwise we;re just talking out of our asses.

https://www.ehn.org/plastic-environmental-impact-2501923191.html

    Chemicals added to plastics are absorbed by human bodies. Some of these compounds have been found to alter hormones or have other potential human health effects.
    Plastic debris, laced with chemicals and often ingested by marine animals, can injure or poison wildlife.
    Floating plastic waste, which can survive for thousands of years in water, serves as mini transportation devices for invasive species, disrupting habitats.
    Plastic buried deep in landfills can leach harmful chemicals that spread into groundwater.
    Around 4 percent of world oil production is used as a feedstock to make plastics, and a similar amount is consumed as energy in the process.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/philippines-garbage-canada-1.5149645

Burning garbage produces electricity for Metro Vancouver. The regional district said the waste-to-energy facility produces enough power to supply the equivalent of 16,000 homes in the region.

Burning the 1,500 tonnes of trash, it continued, would be the equivalent of two days of work for the incinerator.

Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2019, 07:09:53 am »
Again, you or I don't have the info the calculate the total impact on plastic vs wood vs whatever, so this discussion is pointless unless we have data, otherwise we;re just talking out of our asses.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-sorry-banning-plastic-bags-wont-save-our-planet/

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Moreover, banning plastic bags can have unexpected, inconvenient results. A new study shows California’s ban eliminates 40 million pounds of plastic annually. However, many banned bags would have been reused for trash, so consumption of trash bags went up by 12 million pounds, reducing the benefit. It also increased consumption of paper bags by twice the saved amount of plastic – 83 million pounds. This will lead to much larger emissions of CO₂.
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We also need to consider the wider environmental impact of our bag choices. A 2018 study by the Danish Ministry of Environment and Food looked not just at plastic waste, but also at climate-change damage, ozone depletion, human toxicity and other indicators. It found you must reuse an organic cotton shopping bag 20,000 times before it will have less climate damage than a plastic bag.
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We should also recognize that more than 70 per cent of all plastics floating on oceans today – about 190,000 tonnes – come from fisheries, with buoys and lines making up the majority. That tells us clearly that concerted action is needed to clean up the fishing industry.
The last point is interesting. It illustrates why hype driven policy is counter productive and often fails to address the real problem.

On the first point, it rings true for me since my household switched reusable shopping bags years ago. Since then we have had to regularily buy much thicker kitchen garbage bags at Costco. The trade off works for us but I am not sure the landfill benefits.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 07:23:23 am by TimG »

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2019, 12:01:39 pm »
On the first point, it rings true for me since my household switched reusable shopping bags years ago. Since then we have had to regularily buy much thicker kitchen garbage bags at Costco. The trade off works for us but I am not sure the landfill benefits.

Reusable bags became law in my neighbourhood about 3 years ago. I have yet to purchase a kitchen garbage bag.

Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2019, 01:33:23 pm »
Reusable bags became law in my neighbourhood about 3 years ago. I have yet to purchase a kitchen garbage bag.
Good for you. But that does not mean it is viable option for others. It is also does not change the point from the California study that plastic bag bans don't necessarily reduce plastic consumption.

Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2019, 01:42:25 pm »
More studies that demonstrate how the hype-driven environment policy is can be worse than doing nothing:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/291023/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf

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The study found that:
 •The environmental impact of all types of carrier bag is dominated by resource use and production stages. Transport, secondary packaging and end-of-life management generally have a minimal influence on their performance.

 •Whatever type of bag is used, the key to reducing the impacts is to reuse it as many times as possible and where reuse for shopping is not practicable, other reuse, e.g. to replace bin liners, is beneficial.

•The reuse of conventional HDPE and other lightweight carrier bags for shopping and/or as bin-liners is pivotal to their environmental performance and reuse as bin liners produces greater benefits than recycling bags.

•Starch-polyester blend bags have a higher global warming potential and abiotic depletion than conventional polymer bags, due both to the increased weight of material in a bag and higher material production impacts.

•The paper, LDPE, non-woven PP and cotton bags should be reused at least 3, 4, 11 and 131 times respectively to ensure that they have lower global warming potential than conventional HDPE carrier bags that are not reused. The number of times each would have to be reused when different proportions of conventional (HDPE) carrier bags are reused are shown in the table below.

 •Recycling or composting generally produce only a small reduction in global warming potential and abiotic depletion.

It is worth noting that these kinds of studies for straws don't exist yet because the environmentalist obsession with straws has just started. There is no reason to believe that once all the costs are added up that the substitutes will be as or more harmful to the environment in different ways.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 01:50:16 pm by TimG »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #83 on: June 17, 2019, 01:58:06 pm »
Reusable bags became law in my neighbourhood about 3 years ago. I have yet to purchase a kitchen garbage bag.

What do you use for bags in your kitchen?
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #84 on: June 17, 2019, 02:02:39 pm »
What do you use for bags in your kitchen?

I had a stash of the single-use plastic bags that lasted about 24 months, and now I use the multitude of plastic bags that come in the door (flyers), some produce like apples, etc. There is no shortage of suitable bags if you spend a second and think before throwing them away.

Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #85 on: June 17, 2019, 02:33:54 pm »
I had a stash of the single-use plastic bags that lasted about 24 months, and now I use the multitude of plastic bags that come in the door (flyers), some produce like apples, etc. There is no shortage of suitable bags if you spend a second and think before throwing them away.
I don't get any flyers with plastic bags nor do I throw away bags gotten from other sources. The only alternative is to use garbage bins without liners and simply dumping the loose stuff directly into my garbage bin. But this is messy and creates unnecessary work because the bins would need to be regularly washed with soap.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #86 on: June 17, 2019, 02:44:55 pm »
The only alternative is to use garbage bins without liners and simply dumping the loose stuff directly into my garbage bin. But this is messy and creates unnecessary work because the bins would need to be regularly washed with soap.

Does your municipality have composting? My regular garbage is very small, and not messy at all. It has no smell, and I usually only put it out once every 3-4 weeks.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2019, 03:01:56 pm »
I had a stash of the single-use plastic bags that lasted about 24 months, and now I use the multitude of plastic bags that come in the door (flyers), some produce like apples, etc. There is no shortage of suitable bags if you spend a second and think before throwing them away.

I use the reusable bags until i'm low on plastic bags, then i'll get some groceries in plastic bags once or twice to restock, then go back to reusable bags, rinse repeat.

If you have a house with a whole family those plastic bags aren't usually big enough for ie: kitchen garbage so you have to buy some kitchen bags, and use the smaller bags for ie: bathrooms.

The biodegradable bags are cool, they'll disintegrate in a few years.  I stored something in one of those bags by accident and then a few years later took it out of storage and the whole bag had turned into little flakes the moment i touched it.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2019, 11:15:46 am »
Your cotton tote is pretty much the worst replacement for a plastic bag

In a 2018 life-cycle assessment, Denmark’s ministry of environment and food agreed with previous similar studies, finding that classic plastic shopping bags have the least environmental impact. This assessment does not take marine litter into account—so as far as that gigantic problem is concerned, plastics are almost certainly the worst, since they don’t break down on a timescale meaningful to human or animal life.

But when taking into account other factors, like the impact of manufacturing on climate change, ozone depletion, water use, air pollution, and human toxicity, those classic, plastic shopping bags are actually the most benign of the current common options.

Cotton bags must be reused thousands of times before they meet the environmental performance of plastic bags—and, the Denmark researchers write, organic cotton is worse than conventional cotton when it comes to overall environmental impact. According to the report, organic cotton bags have to be reused many more times than conventional cotton bags (20,000 versus 7,000 times)


https://qz.com/1585027/when-it-comes-to-climate-change-cotton-totes-might-be-worse-than-plastic/
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley