Author Topic: Can someone lend me a fork?  (Read 766 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2019, 02:55:58 pm »
Few people outside asians want use chopsticks because they're terrible.  They can't replace spoons or knives either.  They need a product to replace the plastic utensils that are at least recyclable.  Bamboo is an interesting option.  As you say. there's smart people out there to figure it out.
It it not hard. What is hard is actually coming up with a replacement that is as effective and does not have just as much of a negative impact but in a different way. Are we really further ahead if China's burns more coal to supply us with wooden utensils?

I don't know what they'll do to replace all those microwaveable meal containers etc that are plastic.  Banning single use plastic is a massive, massive change and that will potentially have a sizeable impact on the economy.  I'm all for it as long as there's a better replacement solution to be found.
The trouble with these "flavour of the month" obsessions is there is no room for acknowledging that there are no better options. The mob wants something done and the politicians and corporations will do it even if it costs more, is less effective and has a greater negative environment impact.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2019, 03:05:00 pm »
It it not hard. What is hard is actually coming up with a replacement that is as effective and does not have just as much of a negative impact but in a different way. Are we really further ahead if China's burns more coal to supply us with wooden utensils?
The trouble with these "flavour of the month" obsessions is there is no room for acknowledging that there are no better options. The mob wants something done and the politicians and corporations will do it even if it costs more, is less effective and has a greater negative environment impact.

How the hell do you come up with the suggestion that China would need to burn more coal to supply wooden utensils? Apparently you continue to grasp at straws. (did you see what I did there?}
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Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2019, 03:18:23 pm »
How the hell do you come up with the suggestion that China would need to burn more coal to supply wooden utensils?
What wonderful proof of how clueless the people calling for the ban are. You have no idea what the consequences would be but there is one relevant fact: it takes 4 times the energy to produce a paper cup over a styrofoam cup. On top of that the chemical waste from processing paper suitable for use with food far exceeds the waste from styrofoam cup production. Based on this data point is perfectly reasonable to point out that suppliers of wooden utensils will consume more energy and if that energy comes from coal it will produce more GHGs. Put producing more GHGs in China is fine as long as people here can pretend to be virtuous because they are using wooden utensils.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2019, 03:23:53 pm »
What wonderful proof of how clueless the people calling for the ban are. You have no idea what the consequences would be but there is one relevant fact: it takes 4 times the energy to produce a paper cup over a styrofoam cup. On top of that the chemical waste from processing paper suitable for use with food far exceeds the waste from styrofoam cup production. Based on this data point is perfectly reasonable to point out that suppliers of wooden utensils will consume more energy and if that energy comes from coal it will produce more GHGs. Put producing more GHGs in China is fine as long as people here can pretend to be virtuous because they are using wooden utensils.

Your main point isn't wrong.  We need to calculate the full impact before going ahead with a policy that might sound good at the outset.  Like I said before, IF there's a proven better alternative to plastics i'm all for it.

As for straws, instead of using paper straws why not just ban straws altogether, besides for the disabled?  Nobody needs a straw to drink anything that i'm aware.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2019, 03:29:35 pm »
As for straws, instead of using paper straws why not just ban straws altogether, besides for the disabled?  Nobody needs a straw to drink anything that i'm aware.
If you want to go full Puritan then almost no one *needs* any substance served with a straw.  This is not about what people need. This should only about minimizing the environmental impact of things that people want. That said, I don't believe any policy based on the premise that single use plastic has to go is going to actually accomplish that because it is the wrong focus. The focus should be on finding the option with the least total environmental impact and if that happens to be single use plastic then so be it.

Offline Omni

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2019, 03:33:09 pm »
What wonderful proof of how clueless the people calling for the ban are. You have no idea what the consequences would be but there is one relevant fact: it takes 4 times the energy to produce a paper cup over a styrofoam cup. On top of that the chemical waste from processing paper suitable for use with food far exceeds the waste from styrofoam cup production. Based on this data point is perfectly reasonable to point out that suppliers of wooden utensils will consume more energy and if that energy comes from coal it will produce more GHGs. Put producing more GHGs in China is fine as long as people here can pretend to be virtuous because they are using wooden utensils.

It takes a bit more energy to produce a paper cup over a Styrofoam one, certainly not 4 times. And then there's the environmental problem with the latter.
Some reading for you.

Compared to making paper cups, manufacturing polystyrene cups:

    requires about 42 percent less water
    needs about 17 percent less energy
    uses 22 percent less petroleum to source materials and ship cups
    doesn’t call for chemicals that can harm water if not disposed of properly, such as chlorine dioxide
    doesn’t necessitate the cutting of trees

In contrast, when compared to foam cups, paper cups:

    produce about 28 percent fewer greenhouse gasses
    decompose in a landfill in 20 years, as opposed to 1 million-plus
    decompose in water in just a few days, instead of 50 years
    are far easier to recycle and recycled at a higher rate
    aren’t toxic (see above)

https://driftaway.coffee/styrofoam-vs-paper-cups/

Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2019, 03:37:14 pm »
decompose in a landfill in 20 years, as opposed to 1 million-plus
I dumped a bunch of rocks from my garden into the garbage. How many million years will it take those to decompose? Why does it matter? We dig up oil, turn it into plastic an bury it back in the earth. The cycle of life.

Offline Omni

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2019, 03:41:10 pm »
I dumped a bunch of rocks from my garden into the garbage. How many million years will it take those to decompose? Why does it matter? We dig up oil, turn it into plastic an bury it back in the earth. The cycle of life.

As has already been explained to you, we don't bury millions of tons of it, we throw it in the ocean and end up killing food. Your reference to rocks shows the frailty of your argument.

Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2019, 03:42:00 pm »
As has already been explained to you, we don't bury millions of tons of it, we throw it in the ocean and end up killing food.
We don't. Other countries do. Nothing we do will change that problem.

Offline Omni

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2019, 03:44:49 pm »
We don't. Other countries do. Nothing we do will change that problem.

60 other countries are focused on the issue. Perhaps read before you post.

Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2019, 03:54:03 pm »
60 other countries are focused on the issue. Perhaps read before you post.
So what? We don't cause the problem with ocean waste. If other countries that actually cause the problem are willing to do something about then great but it has nothing to do with us. You also forget that the ocean waste problem can be dealt with with proper waste handling procedures. It does not actually require a ban on plastics. A ban on plastics is a virtue signalling exercise.

Offline Omni

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2019, 04:00:15 pm »
Few people outside asians want use chopsticks because they're terrible.  They can't replace spoons or knives either.  They need a product to replace the plastic utensils that are at least recyclable.  Bamboo is an interesting option.  As you say. there's smart people out there to figure it out.

I don't know what they'll do to replace all those microwaveable meal containers etc that are plastic.  Banning single use plastic is a massive, massive change and that will potentially have a sizeable impact on the economy.  I'm all for it as long as there's a better replacement solution to be found.

Actually around one third of the worlds population use chopsticks everyday. I don't use them every day but I have 8 pairs in my cutlery drawer I have reused for years. Compare that with the amount of plastic spoons that get thrown in the ocean every day and you begin to understand the environmental impact. Perhaps you are suffering from  “Consecotaleophobia.”

https://mobile-cuisine.com/did-you-know/chopstick-fun-facts/
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 04:07:34 pm by Omni »

Offline Omni

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2019, 04:04:29 pm »
So what? We don't cause the problem with ocean waste. If other countries that actually cause the problem are willing to do something about then great but it has nothing to do with us. You also forget that the ocean waste problem can be dealt with with proper waste handling procedures. It does not actually require a ban on plastics. A ban on plastics is a virtue signalling exercise.

It seems every effort to protect our environment, (you know, the one you and I depend on each day) is "virtue signalling". That attempt at undermining such efforts grows weaker each time you try to flog it.

Offline TimG

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2019, 04:41:59 pm »
Actually around one third of the worlds population use chopsticks everyday. I don't use them every day but I have 8 pairs in my cutlery drawer I have reused for years. Compare that with the amount of plastic spoons that get thrown in the ocean every day and you begin to understand the environmental impact. Perhaps you are suffering from  “Consecotaleophobia.”
The ocean plastic problem is not cause by spoons. It is caused by single use containers thrown in the ocean in 3rd world countries that lack the ability to dispose of them properly. They have the same problem with sewage and other types of waste.

Offline wilber

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Re: Can someone lend me a fork?
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2019, 04:42:52 pm »
Your main point isn't wrong.  We need to calculate the full impact before going ahead with a policy that might sound good at the outset.  Like I said before, IF there's a proven better alternative to plastics i'm all for it.

As for straws, instead of using paper straws why not just ban straws altogether, besides for the disabled?  Nobody needs a straw to drink anything that i'm aware.

Plastic straws didn't come into use until the sixties, before that disposable straws were paper. They aren't something new.
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