Author Topic: Basic income program for Canada  (Read 582 times)

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Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2020, 01:12:10 pm »
Yes I support helping people retrain and funding education for low income people of any age.

Yes, the General Education Development (GED) high school equivalency certificate is very accessible and much used in Canada by people who, for whatever reason, did not complete secondary school. It costs only $100 to take the test, (more if additional tutoring is required), and employers, Colleges and Universities do recognize it as equivalent to a secondary school diploma.

About 3,500 people got a GED last year, in Ontario alone. It's a great program for getting people employed, or accessing post secondary programs.

While there may still be some older people well employed without a high school diploma, that won't happen for current generations: You really can't even get a temporary job anymore without a high school diploma or equivalent. 

I asked a local summer burger joint for a job application for a young woman, who had 'aged out' of foster care with no secondary diploma. The manager just  laughed at me and said "Most of our employees are working on their PhD!"

Not just Ontario ... I've heard there are Alberta oil workers who left school at 15 for good paying jobs ... that are no more.


Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2020, 06:29:21 am »
What you are also missing Granny is that 'jobs' are gone.
When robots make everything, there is nothing for humans to do.

Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2020, 06:30:16 am »
This make me feel like we need an automation thread...

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2020, 08:53:10 am »
What you are also missing Granny is that 'jobs' are gone.
When robots make everything, there is nothing for humans to do.

In the hypothetical future ...
Automation took away masses of jobs in the '80's - eg two thirds of steelworkers (~14,000 jobs) in Hamilton.

But we're still stumbling along with the same old options - EI & welfare support. We just have fewer good jobs and more min wage and part-time service jobs. Workers pay tanked, income supports tanked in the '90's, while billionaire's profits soared.

It will take a revolution (of sorts) to drag things (kicking and squealing) into a better balance.

My thinking is evolving to realistic steps we can take now that may gain broad agreement, as you can see from my last 2 posts to Mr Graham: Taking income support rates off the political football field, and entrenching adequate and indexed welfare rates into  law.


Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2020, 10:21:41 am »
1. It will take a revolution (of sorts) to drag things (kicking and squealing) into a better balance.

2. My thinking is evolving to realistic steps we can take now that may gain broad agreement, as you can see from my last 2 posts to Mr Graham: Taking income support rates off the political football field, and entrenching adequate and indexed welfare rates into  law.
1. Maybe not.  There was no revolution that brought concessions and social programs to American democracies in the mid 20th century.

2. I think you are on to something there.

Something else I would add:

- Simplifying programs to prepare for a world where basic income supports may be needed
- Leveraging free work, ie. volunteers, to support and create enhanced communities - using people on benefits, civil servants, part-time workers
- Start creating local communities that are joined via online, on an opt-in basis.

I have experience on #3 and it results in the OPPOSITE of online toxicity... it's in-person POSITIVITY initiated by online CONNECTION and supported through online ENGAGEMENT

No citizen could object to such unifying measures.

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2020, 03:09:59 am »
1. Maybe not.  There was no revolution that brought concessions and social programs to American democracies in the mid 20th century.

The union movement fought for those, and continues to. It's an ongoing revolution.
https://canadianlabour.ca/uncategorized/why-unions-history-labour-canada/

We are social unions, focused not just on the gains we can make in bargaining, but the gains we can make for society as a whole, like fighting to end child labour, or to win workers compensation, public pensions and social programs that help people keep working, like health care and child care.

Quote
2. I think you are on to something there.
Something else I would add:

- Simplifying programs to prepare for a world where basic income supports may be needed

Yes, it does make a lot of sense to standardize welfare rates and increases so politicians can't mess with them for political gain.

Quote
- Leveraging free work, ie. volunteers, to support and create enhanced communities - using people on benefits, civil servants, part-time workers
- Start creating local communities that are joined via online, on an opt-in basis.

I have experience on #3 and it results in the OPPOSITE of online toxicity... it's in-person POSITIVITY initiated by online CONNECTION and supported through online ENGAGEMENT

No citizen could object to such unifying measures.

It makes sense. There can be challenges around 'taking jobs', financing materials, equipment etc and ... well ... personalities and leadership perhaps?

Basic income doesn't claim to replace work, but to supplement and support when needed, and prevent people from falling through cracks in the patchwork of current supports.

Just a thought ...
When all jobs are automated and businesses cease being 'job creators', how on earth do we convince them that they still have to pay taxes to support all of us?
I'm just not clear on how such a society could work.  ???

« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 03:25:48 am by Granny »

Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2020, 05:32:16 am »
It's not a problem, it's a solution.

And we didn't have a revolution, which is a good thing.  The changes required could be mostly achieved by legislative and cultural change.

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2020, 09:06:34 am »
It's not a problem, it's a solution.

And we didn't have a revolution, which is a good thing.  The changes required could be mostly achieved by legislative and cultural change.

A "revolution (of sorts)" can be a revolution in the way we think - "a cultural revolution" and I do believe that we had one back then, a brief shining moment.

But considering the hardening of attitudes and flight of money up the wealth trail  since then, I don't see a 'world without work' happening anytime soon!

Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2020, 10:01:39 am »
You're not looking in the right places.

I think the parallel situation is the conflict between Robert Moses and Shakespeare in the Park in NYC in the 60s.  Look it up.  :D

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2020, 05:12:23 pm »
Summary of studies of Basic Income programs.
None are definitive as they are mostly not universal but sampling (eg, effects on society/economy not known) not long term but shorter term pilots (longer term health effects not known,etc).
However, some interesting results.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/02/is-basic-income-a-good-idea-heres-what-the-evidence-from-around-the-world-says/

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2020, 07:28:50 pm »
A "revolution (of sorts)" can be a revolution in the way we think - "a cultural revolution" and I do believe that we had one back then, a brief shining moment.

But considering the hardening of attitudes and flight of money up the wealth trail  since then, I don't see a 'world without work' happening anytime soon!

Is this what you're talking about?  Not interested.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

The Leap Manifesto and the Green New Deal needs to be flushed down the toilet.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2020, 08:48:12 pm »
Is this what you're talking about?  Not interested.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

The Leap Manifesto and the Green New Deal needs to be flushed down the toilet.

Be prepared to be wrong.  Lol

Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2020, 06:05:08 am »
This is the topic for UBI

Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2020, 07:48:30 pm »
I want to point out, for those following, that the term UBI is being used to describe a class of benefit systems that is diverse.