Author Topic: Basic income program for Canada  (Read 1581 times)

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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2020, 12:44:01 am »
I have no idea.  I don't think that the current system is humane enough, and I question whether Basic Income will address root problems.

I do understand the concept.  And I take it you are ok with the layoffs and displacements that will come of it.  I say this to show that it's a balance here... Welfare Queens are not a thing but cutting a cheque isn't always the best approach.

I’m ok with the layoffs.  For most people, all they need is the cheque.  Of course, those with medical/mental health/addictions need extra help.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2020, 05:13:11 am »
I’m ok with the layoffs.  For most people, all they need is the cheque.  Of course, those with medical/mental health/addictions need extra help.

You're starting to follow my line of thinking maybe.

I'm thinking the social workers, the people with experience will tell us: "Some, say 2/3, just need a cheque to get them going again", "some need life counselling and lots of 1-on-1 help, daycare, therapy as well as a change of science", "some will never be able to be independent".

Our response to social problems is a corporate divide-and-conquer strategy, which is better than nothing but is not designed

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2020, 11:45:00 am »
You googled “welfare dependency” and copied a bunch of links that you didn’t read.   ::)

Yup. And Ghost of Graham posted all US links that he didn't read.
 Not credible or useful.
Nor is his "logic" credible, as it's not consistent with any research into human motivation.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 11:47:41 am by Granny »

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2020, 12:51:33 pm »
He said he did read them.  There was some interesting stuff in there. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2020, 01:50:03 pm »
Yup. And Ghost of Graham posted all US links that he didn't read.
 Not credible or useful.
Nor is his "logic" credible, as it's not consistent with any research into human motivation.

You want to give everyone free money.  Everyone (but the rich).  It's radical insanity.  I could post 400 scholarly articles directly refuting your proposal and you'd scoff at them.

Also, giving people free money without strings attached is nuts.  If we want to give out money, give to people that need it like the homeless and disabled.  Having someone go to a doctor once a year to prove they're disabled isn't much of a burden.  If you want tens of thousands of dollars of free money, taking a few hours to visit the doctor's office once a year is literally the least we could ask, most aren't doing anything anyways.

Terry Fox ran across half the country, 26 miles a day every day, on one leg while suffering from cancer.  But 3 hours to bus to the doctor's office and back is too much for you Granny?  Stop treating adults like children.  People like you are making everyone soft and weak.  You don't give people dignity and a reason to live by enabling them to sit on their ass all day and collect cheques when they're capable of otherwise.  Show me the research that says that works.
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Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2020, 03:26:04 pm »
Well granny prefers the 230% option, which is insane and will never happen anyways except for in socialist pipe dreams.

Instead jacking taxes astronomically and giving tons of free money to everyone including those who don't need it, it might make sense to, oh uhm i dunno, help people become financially independent of mommy government and her delicious money nipple.

Anyways, let's talk about how we can actually help people who need help.  Some people, like the disabled, actually do need the money nipple.


I hoped we could have a discussion about this without derogatory a
comments toward people in need of assistance.

It displays a real lack of knowledge about people  who are temporarily or permanently in need of assistance, and how difficult, demeaning and harsh their lives of poverty are.

If you resent people in need so much, I suggest you try living their lives for a while.

Maybe that's one of the benefits of providing a basic income to everyone ... so you are reminded how little is provided to the people who have the most challenges in life.

"mommy government and her delicious money nipple" provides lower than poverty level (ie, not enough to house and feed) support to disabled and currently unemployable people.

I'm not sure just who you are imagining is enjoying "the delicious money nipple", but I don't think you're very well-informed about people in need. Your comments suggest that you suspect there are people as well equipped for life as yourself who just choose instead to live in "delicious" poverty. I suggest you try living on ramen noodles for 2 weeks a month, and see whether you even have the energy to do your job!

Lots of people can lose everything and fall on hard times due to recession, illness, accident (eg, brain injury, etc.), addiction, loss/grieving, caring for an ailing spouse (ie, two incomes lost), or a daughter dies and suddenly min-wage Grandma has 2 preschoolers to raise ... etc etc etc. There are THOUSANDS of temporary circumstances that fall upon people who are already living on the edge of poverty, and can sink them permanently if there's only welfare support, because it is only enough to keep them in deep poverty, never enough to help them climb out again!

The most common users of welfare (80%) are single parents with pre-school children, who, on average, receive support for 3 years, until children are in school, and the parent can work without incurring excessive child care costs that quickly chew up a minimum wage pay cheque.

There aren't many able-bodied, able-minded men with employable skills who choose the misery of chronic poverty instead, because they're 'too lazy' to work. If that's who you are imagining enjoying a pleasant life of leisure from "the delicious money nipple", you are not well-informed.

The population of people receiving income support is not static. People often require assistance only temporarily, and maybe only once in their lifetime.





« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 11:28:59 am by Granny »

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2020, 04:31:33 pm »
I started reading them.  They are interesting.  I for one will admit having biases about poverty, and also lacking information.

I "get" the advantages of basic income, and I like the idea but the costs presented are massive and could kill the drivers that push the economy.

Interesting thing about providing a livable basic income to low income people: It all gets spent, goes back into the economy and supports businesses. It is an economic driver itself.
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That's why I'm in favour of asking people who work with the poor what they think.

I'm in favour of asking low income people themselves what would help them get ahead.

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But also - I think Squid asked... is this a problem ?  Are we talking about inequality or basic needs ?  Some issues can be fixed - on the equality side - with labour reform.

I think we'd want to be looking at what it takes to really help people get ahead, become self-sufficient, healthy and engaged in society.
Current levels of support ensure substandard housing (bugs, crime, leaks, mould, etc) substandard nutrition (poor nourishment = low energy, mental confusion, depression) and are pretty much guaranteed to trap people in that deep poverty malaise that becomes chronic.

I think the Ontario minimum wage raise was a really good start, though still not a 'livable' wage for 1 person, 1 job.

The costs of living below the poverty line (ie, current income supports) are also apparent in increased health costs, crime/policing and other social and community services.
The onetime Dauphin, Manitoba basic income pilot identified some of those unexpected benefits, and also the long term benefit of being able to afford education/training to become employable and self-sufficient.
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/12/23/mincome-in-dauphin-manitoba_n_6335682.html
“Canada’s welfare system is a box with a tight lid. Those in need must essentially first become destitute before they qualify for temporary assistance,” said TD Bank’s former chief economist Don Drummond after the social agency’s report was released in 2010.

“But the record shows once you become destitute you tend to stay in that state. You have no means to absorb setbacks in income or unexpected costs. You can’t afford to move to where jobs might be or upgrade your skills.”

Our current system of income supports gives people less than they need to get ahead, and less than they need to stay healthy.

I guess it's on my mind this week because of a death in our community, a man who despite his own massive challenges, never stopped advocating for people like himself with disabilities ... until he died last week.
From 7 months ago:

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2020, 05:05:12 pm »
You want to give everyone free money.  Everyone (but the rich). 

I want to give it to the rich too! (Option#3)
It would be taxed back, of course, above a certain level (I suggest $75k, like OAS.)

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It's radical insanity.  I could post 400 scholarly articles directly refuting your proposal and you'd scoff at them.

Radical, perhaps. But efficient as it does solve a lot of problems at once.
I'm interested in whatever CANADIAN links you want to post on this topic.
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Also, giving people free money without strings attached is nuts.  If we want to give out money, give to people that need it like the homeless and disabled. 
Yes, they're included.
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Having someone go to a doctor once a year to prove they're disabled isn't much of a burden.  If you want tens of thousands of dollars of free money, taking a few hours to visit the doctor's office once a year is literally the least we could ask, most aren't doing anything anyways.

It isn't one visit. It's a whole round of tests, running here and there ... in a wheelchair, with no money for taxis. You should try it sometime!
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Terry Fox ran across half the country, 26 miles a day every day, on one leg while suffering from cancer.  But 3 hours to bus to the doctor's office and back is too much for you Granny?  Stop treating adults like children.  People like you are making everyone soft and weak.
People like you don't have a clue of the strength it takes to be disabled and living in poverty.

 
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You don't give people dignity and a reason to live by enabling them to sit on their ass all day and collect cheques when they're capable of otherwise.  Show me the research that says that works.

You betray little knowledge, and great disrespect for people living in poverty.

Perhaps you think of them as single men "sitting on their asses" enjoying a life of leisure?
Very few of those living in extreme poverty are men.

The majority of people living in extreme poverty in Canada are children. Their developing brains and bodies need proper nutrition and housing to grow to their potential.
There should be no hungry children born and raised in debilitating poverty in Canada.

I don't give a good goddamn what their parents do or don't do! Children should not be punished for it. They should be properly housed and fed, regardless. That's society's responsibility.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 05:13:48 pm by Granny »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2020, 11:14:18 pm »
I want to give it to the rich too! (Option#3)
It would be taxed back, of course, above a certain level (I suggest $75k, like OAS.)

So free money for everyone, except the rich get interest-free loans.

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It isn't one visit. It's a whole round of tests, running here and there ... in a wheelchair, with no money for taxis. You should try it sometime!

Pay them for the tests and transportation.  Problem solved.

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People like you don't have a clue of the strength it takes to be disabled and living in poverty.

You don't know anything about my life, what I do, what i've seen, or who I know.  Nothing.

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You betray little knowledge, and great disrespect for people living in poverty.

I'm not talking about all people living in poverty, I'm talking about people with disabilities who can't work.

Perhaps you think of them as single men "sitting on their asses" enjoying a life of leisure?

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I don't give a good goddamn what their parents do or don't do! Children should not be punished for it. They should be properly housed and fed, regardless. That's society's responsibility.

Yeah I agree.  Not sure how this turned to children in poverty, this is a strawman, it has nothing to do with my points..  I was talking about disabled people you feel are so helpless they shouldn't have to visit a doctor once a year.  Some of them have barriers to do this, so let's help remove those barriers.  But I'm not going to support giving gazillions of dollars to people that don't need it.

The fact is, you want to erode everyone's autonomy by making everyone far more reliant on the government for their income.  Even if we could afford it, it's disgusting.

The concept of the social safety net is to catch you when you're falling so you land safely.  In other words, when you get into trouble the government is there to help out until you're on your feet again (unless it's a permanent problem).  That's the concept I support.  I have no problem helping the poor, the sick, the disabled etc.  But I'm also not going to treat everyone like they're helpless if they aren't.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2020, 03:44:05 pm »
Graham you have some good points.

The thing is, the program was designed by a forward thinking Conservative who can see a future coming fast where there's almost no work to do at all.

At that point, the 'work is good for the soul' argument dies.


Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2020, 03:55:58 pm »

The concept of the social safety net is to catch you when you're falling so you land safely.  In other words, when you get into trouble the government is there to help out until you're on your feet again (unless it's a permanent problem).  That's the concept I support.


I agree, and I don't see that in place now.
I see systemic problems with the current system that are preventing that, and are not being addressed.

The first problem is that current income supports don't provide a safe landing and help you get on your feet again: It just isn't enough.
https://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/reports/ontarios-social-assistance-poverty-gap
This paper measures the poverty gap for singles and families with children who qualify for either Ontario Works or the Ontario Disability Support Program. It concludes that the poverty gap—the distance between total benefit income and the poverty line—for people who qualify for social
assistance has worsened over time. In 1989, a single person qualifying for Ontario Works faced a poverty gap of just under 40%. By 1993, the gap had been cut in half and singles on social assistance faced a poverty gap of 20%.
By 2014, the gap had widened dramatically to 59%. People receiving benefits from Ontario’s social assistance programs are living in a greater depth of poverty now than a generation ago.


Why is that the case? It's because of the second problem: People on welfare are used as a political football. Rates fluctuate with political changes, and never recover.

Some of society’s harshest judgments are reserved for people who receive social assistance benefits. What is clear from this analysis is that those judgments have influenced the policy of successive governments, which,
in turn, has resulted in the gross inadequacy of total benefit incomes for
this group of people. As a result, they have become some of the most marginalized and vulnerable in our communities.


(Putting Basic Income aside for now ... )

It would make sense to me that 'safety net' income support should be ...

*sufficient to afford necessities
as defined by agreed upon standards: 
-safe housing (ie, consistent with property standards),
-adequate nutrition (eg, the 'Market Basket' definition), and
-job search (transportation, clothing, tools, etc.).

And it would also make sense that welfare rates should be ...

*increased annually
in line with the cost-of-living index.

These seem like fundamental principles to me, but instead we have politicians either cutting assistance rates to score polling points, or afraid to raise them in case they lose polling points.

Can we agree on those two principles?

« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 03:58:56 pm by Granny »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2020, 05:05:00 pm »
Graham you have some good points.

The thing is, the program was designed by a forward thinking Conservative who can see a future coming fast where there's almost no work to do at all.

At that point, the 'work is good for the soul' argument dies.

Now you're changing the argument.

If automation is going to get rid of almost all work then there's no point implementing it until that becomes a reality.  Right now the unemployment rate is low.  People thought the industrial revolution was going to put people out of work and we'd be free to do things like art, reading etc., turns out new jobs were created and people weren't satisfied with having a standard of living from 1901.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2020, 05:31:17 pm »
(Putting Basic Income aside for now ... )

It would make sense to me that 'safety net' income support should be ...

*sufficient to afford necessities
as defined by agreed upon standards: 
-safe housing (ie, consistent with property standards),
-adequate nutrition (eg, the 'Market Basket' definition), and
-job search (transportation, clothing, tools, etc.).

And it would also make sense that welfare rates should be ...

*increased annually
in line with the cost-of-living index.

These seem like fundamental principles to me, but instead we have politicians either cutting assistance rates to score polling points, or afraid to raise them in case they lose polling points.

Can we agree on those two principles?

Yes i 100% agree with them.  No reasonable person would disagree I think.

These are the types of things that need support.  We only have a finite amount of tax revenues, no matter how much we tax. We need to help people who need it, which are the poor, disabled, sick etc.

I would even go further than that.  Ones of the keys preventing longterm poverty is education.  Statistically the difference in income is vast comparing the average person who finishes high school or drops out vs someone who is well-educated with an employable post-secondary degree.  So if I were to raise taxes I would pour money and resources into our education system to ensure the schools in the poorest parts of our cities are the best-funded with the best teachers and supports, instead of the opposite which is currently the case.

Well-funded schools will be able to help children stay well-nourished at school so they can perform better, and have after-school programs to help them with homework and keep them out of trouble because many poor households especially low-income single-parent households have parents who don't have the time and energy to do so because they're busy working so the child is left suffers.
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Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2020, 09:07:22 pm »
Yes i 100% agree with them.  No reasonable person would disagree I think.

These are the types of things that need support.  We only have a finite amount of tax revenues, no matter how much we tax. We need to help people who need it, which are the poor, disabled, sick etc.

Ok, so can we get Doug Ford to do the sensible thing?  ???
Welfare rates ...
*sufficient to afford necessities
*increased annually

By law ... so future governments can't mess with it for political points.

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I would even go further than that.  Ones of the keys preventing longterm poverty is education.  Statistically the difference in income is vast comparing the average person who finishes high school or drops out vs someone who is well-educated with an employable post-secondary degree.  So if I were to raise taxes I would pour money and resources into our education system to ensure the schools in the poorest parts of our cities are the best-funded with the best teachers and supports, instead of the opposite which is currently the case.

Well-funded schools will be able to help children stay well-nourished at school so they can perform better, and have after-school programs to help them with homework and keep them out of trouble because many poor households especially low-income single-parent households have parents who don't have the time and energy to do so because they're busy working so the child is left suffers.

Agreed education is priority for kids, well nourished and well rested and safe at home, they thrive and learn.
 
And education is part of adult job search too, of course.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2020, 10:40:10 pm »
And education is part of adult job search too, of course.

Yes I support helping people retrain and funding education for low income people of any age.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley