Author Topic: Basic income program for Canada  (Read 1077 times)

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2020, 02:40:13 pm »
Remember, basic income is a universal program, not just for those currently living in poverty. So think about how you would want to use it for yourself too. Are such programs useful to you? A good way for you to spend your basic income money?

I think most people would want to use it for long term financial planning, to get ahead.

The patriarchal model of custodial care would, as you are suggesting, control the money, 'put them in a program'. It prioritizes external control, and that's associated with increasing dependency and learned helplessness.

Basic income affords people the autonomy to determine and access programs and services that fulfill their personal needs, abilities, and ambitions, choose their own paths forward, and facilitate independent long term financial planning.
Isn't that what we'd all want to do with our basic income?

We're all human. Autonomy motivates and energizes us. Control and force drain us of both.
Proven facts.

You don't make people more autonomous by making everyone more dependent on government cheques.  You want to give money to everyone, even those who don't need it.  It's insane.  It can't even be paid for.

Give a teenager a hefty allowance for doing no chores and they'll be less not more motivated to go out and find a part-time job.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline the_squid

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2020, 02:54:37 pm »
You don't make people more autonomous by making everyone more dependent on government cheques.  You want to give money to everyone, even those who don't need it.  It's insane.  It can't even be paid for.

I don’t think the research shows that more people become dependant upon government cheques.  Do you have a cite?

Those who don’t need it can pay more in income tax to offset the fact that they don’t need it.

Alaska has already been doing this for years...   they give out monthly cheques to every citizen based on oil revenues.  Not sure why Alaska isn’t the subject of more studies on the impacts...

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2020, 03:18:24 pm »
you were bemoaning the lack of "good pilot programs"... and I gave you a 'good as it gets' example with the Liberal Party introduced Child Care Benefit (CCB).

Yes, it has some merit as a particular focus.
Where's the evidence for what it accomplishes for families with children?

Quote
there will never be a deployment of universal, let alone a representative pilot.

Why not?

Quote
What there can be, per CCB, are selective... targeted... policies impacting upon segments of the populace.

Again, some merit, but it does not address the need for fallback income for everyone experiencing financial need temporarily and the huge cost of 'gatekeeping' for temporary financial
support.

Quote
by the by, your conceptual zeal for UBI seems a tad lacking in the reality of how to actually pay for it - yes?

Proper assessment of basic income programs is lacking, including info about long term savings in other public services, and improved health, education and employment outcomes.

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2020, 03:59:25 pm »
You don't make people more autonomous by making everyone more dependent on government cheques.  You want to give money to everyone, even those who don't need it.  It's insane.  It can't even be paid for.

Give a teenager a hefty allowance for doing no chores and they'll be less not more motivated to go out and find a part-time job.

We're talking about adults!

Treating them and talking about them as if they are dependent children IS the problem with our current moribund system!

People don't escape poverty when they are helpless and without sufficient funds for safe housing and nourishment.

There's no support in human research for your assumptions: Externally imposed control and manipulation of necessities depletes motivation.
It is autonomous control and independence that creates circumstances and motivation that make it possible for people to succeed.



Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2020, 09:56:34 pm »
I don’t think the research shows that more people become dependant upon government cheques.  Do you have a cite?

Those who don’t need it can pay more in income tax to offset the fact that they don’t need it.

If you give out free money to virtually everyone every month, not just the poor, as granny wants to do, and some or much of your income depends on free government cheques, how do you not become dependent on that revenue stream?

IMO giving people free money with no questions asked besides "how much money do you make?" is a bit crazy.  If you want to roll all benefits into one, ok that's fine as long as we still have qualifiers.  Someone who was just laid off or is disabled or otherwise can't work etc. is deserving, someone just sitting at home and not wanting to work or only work part-time when they're perfectly healthy and able to find a full-time job is nuts.  People will game the system, if you give people an inch many will take it.

Yes the current system is confusing and big, benefits coming from federal, provincial, and municipal governments from many different departments is confusing.  It should be consolidated into a 1-stop shop or something.

I really haven't looked at the studies of places that have implemented this.  it's an extreme change.  I'd like to see the costs saved by consolidating all these programs vs what the program costs.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline the_squid

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2020, 11:45:48 pm »
If you give out free money to virtually everyone every month, not just the poor, as granny wants to do, and some or much of your income depends on free government cheques, how do you not become dependent on that revenue stream?

IMO giving people free money with no questions asked besides "how much money do you make?" is a bit crazy.  If you want to roll all benefits into one, ok that's fine as long as we still have qualifiers.  Someone who was just laid off or is disabled or otherwise can't work etc. is deserving, someone just sitting at home and not wanting to work or only work part-time when they're perfectly healthy and able to find a full-time job is nuts.  People will game the system, if you give people an inch many will take it.

Yes the current system is confusing and big, benefits coming from federal, provincial, and municipal governments from many different departments is confusing.  It should be consolidated into a 1-stop shop or something.

I really haven't looked at the studies of places that have implemented this.  it's an extreme change.  I'd like to see the costs saved by consolidating all these programs vs what the program costs.

When I ask for a cite,I am not asking for your opinion.  I’m asking for a cite to back up your opinion.  But nothing forthcoming.  Good to know your opinions are based only on your feels. 
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2020, 08:45:45 am »
When I ask for a cite,I am not asking for your opinion.  I’m asking for a cite to back up your opinion.  But nothing forthcoming.  Good to know your opinions are based only on your feels.

Do you have a cite that that people don't become dependent?

It's not based on feels, it's based on logic.  If people's income becomes dependent on government cheques, you become more dependent on government cheques.  You don't have to be a d!ck about it.

But anyways, here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_dependency

https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/indicators-welfare-dependence-annual-report-congress-2009-2013/measuring-welfare-dependence

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4193414/

https://academic.oup.com/swr/article-abstract/26/3/159/1633756?redirectedFrom=PDF

https://thefederalist.com/2015/04/27/dependency-work-incentives-and-the-growing-welfare-state/

https://voxeu.org/article/welfare-dependence-one-generation-next

https://www.cnn.com/2012/09/21/opinion/spalding-welfare-state-dependency/index.html

https://psmag.com/economics/why-is-public-trust-in-federal-government-at-an-all-time-low
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019
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Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2020, 11:28:18 am »
That’s what it sounds like.

Do you think a lot of people are collecting government assistance when they don’t need to be?  How many?  How much is it costing us?

 Better to have an actual universal income and claw it back from people based on how much they make.  No more bureaucracies for all the different departments that hand out different monies to the same people.

I have no idea.  I don't think that the current system is humane enough, and I question whether Basic Income will address root problems.

I do understand the concept.  And I take it you are ok with the layoffs and displacements that will come of it.  I say this to show that it's a balance here... Welfare Queens are not a thing but cutting a cheque isn't always the best approach.

Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2020, 11:33:19 am »
  It can't even be paid for.
 

Well - raising taxes is the short answer.  The programs presented in the OP are costed at 50% 75% and 230% of current expenditures.

So... that.

Offline MH

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2020, 11:42:19 am »
You googled “welfare dependency” and copied a bunch of links that you didn’t read.   ::)

I started reading them.  They are interesting.  I for one will admit having biases about poverty, and also lacking information.

I "get" the advantages of basic income, and I like the idea but the costs presented are massive and could kill the drivers that push the economy.  That's why I'm in favour of asking people who work with the poor what they think.

But also - I think Squid asked... is this a problem ?  Are we talking about inequality or basic needs ?  Some issues can be fixed - on the equality side - with labour reform.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2020, 12:39:12 pm »
You googled “welfare dependency” and copied a bunch of links that you didn’t read.   ::)

I either read them or skimmed them.  You asked for evidence.  They provide evidence.  You obviously didn't read them, stop wasting people's time.

Where's your evidence?  You have none.  Therefore I win the argument.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2020, 12:44:28 pm »
We're talking about adults!

Treating them and talking about them as if they are dependent children IS the problem with our current moribund system!

Yes we are talking about adults.  You want to give everyone including middle class working people with no problems at all free money, like giving kids an allowance they didn't earn by doing any chores.  You want to treat adults like children.

If we want to make things better and easier for people who actually need gov money support i'm cool with that.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2020, 12:53:39 pm »
Well - raising taxes is the short answer.  The programs presented in the OP are costed at 50% 75% and 230% of current expenditures.

So... that.

Well granny prefers the 230% option, which is insane and will never happen anyways except for in socialist pipe dreams.

Instead jacking taxes astronomically and giving tons of free money to everyone including those who don't need it, it might make sense to, oh uhm i dunno, help people become financially independent of mommy government and her delicious money nipple.

Anyways, let's talk about how we can actually help people who need help.  Some people, like the disabled, actually do need the money nipple.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline Granny

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Re: Basic income program for Canada
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2020, 03:28:27 pm »
Do you have a cite that that people don't become dependent?

It's not based on feels, it's based on logic.  If people's income becomes dependent on government cheques, you become more dependent on government cheques.  You don't have to be a d!ck about it.

But anyways, here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_dependency

https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/indicators-welfare-dependence-annual-report-congress-2009-2013/measuring-welfare-dependence

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4193414/

https://academic.oup.com/swr/article-abstract/26/3/159/1633756?redirectedFrom=PDF

https://thefederalist.com/2015/04/27/dependency-work-incentives-and-the-growing-welfare-state/

https://voxeu.org/article/welfare-dependence-one-generation-next

https://www.cnn.com/2012/09/21/opinion/spalding-welfare-state-dependency/index.html

https://psmag.com/economics/why-is-public-trust-in-federal-government-at-an-all-time-low

Ya no ... your sources lack credibility when the devolve to this:

Or we could just keep the current system, which is bad for both poor people and taxpayers.

P.S. This Wizard-of-Id parody contains a lot of insight about labor supply and incentives. As does this Chuck Asay cartoon and this Robert Gorrell cartoon.

P.P.S. If you want some jokes referencing the disability program, we have thepolitically correct version of The Little Red Hen, as well as two very similar jokes about Jesus performing miracles and how liberals differ from conservatives and libertarians.


Now, if there are some cogent quotes among your links that have credibility and relevance to the discussion, please support your opinions from those unbiased sources.