Author Topic: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts  (Read 6987 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2020, 11:25:46 pm »
I hope that made you feel better. Enjoy the warm fuzzy indignation, go post about it in Michael's"GRRRR!  Outrage Culture!" topic. "GRRR! I'm outraged that SOME PEOPLE want old-people to die so that they can go back to watching sportsball at the bar!"

I've gotten that several times in this thread, and I've seen it elsewhere as well, directed at people who question whether banning social gatherings and human interaction and many kinds of commerce and business for the foreseeable future is worth the cost. 

People think it's hilarious that "Karen" is mad that she can't get her hair done, but probably haven't considered that "Karen's" hairdresser is at home wondering how she's going to feed her family on the government assistance she receives.

While yourself and the waldo and various other smart-alecs around the internet have decided that "the cost" is that people can't go to the bar or get their hair done, it's a lot higher than that.

Leaving aside the people whose livelihoods have been lost and businesses that are shuttered and might never reopen, there's also the human cost. Seniors can't see their friends for their weekly bridge game or coffee and gripe sessions. Peewee hockey players might be old enough to vote by the time youth sports is able to resume. Weekly religious services are important to many people, but they're closed now. An endless variety of cultural and entertainment and recreational events are shut down-- everything from concerts and theatre to continuing education classes to movies and sports. Health and fitness facilities, gyms, yoga classes.  How do you have a wedding during this?  How do people date now?    What about school?  What about college?

You guys seem to think an ongoing ban on gatherings over 10 people is trivial or funny. But in dismissing this as a few people being mad that they can't go out and get drunk is incredibly dismissive to an incredibly wide variety of human activities.  Peoples' mental health is suffering, marriages are being strained, domestic violence and alcoholism and suicide will all be on the rise. The effects of isolation are going to cost peoples' lives too, you can take that to the bank.  Don't be so cavalier about dismissing the impact this is having on people.

 -k

I hear a lot of similarities to the donald trump approach here. If guys are beating their wives because they are having to stay at home then there was likely an under lying problem to begin with.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2020, 11:43:03 pm »
While the government is providing CERB for the working population, the only thing they've offered for seniors is to eliminate the mandatory minimum RRIF withdrawals.

There is no help for them because they didn't have income to begin with and if you think OAS and CPP amount to anything, you're mistaken.  My parents get ~$1200 for OAS/CPP (for both of them) per month.

They relied on their RRIF which just shrank by one year's worth of withdrawals.

Many or most boomers have employee pension plans to rely on, in addition to their savings.  Employee pension plans are of course a thing of the past now, except for government workers.

Everybody's retirement savings just took a big hit, but things are already rising again thanks to government action.

The government is providing much-needed help, for people who qualify, but isn't going to make up for what people are losing. Especially people who rely on tips, and people who rely on commissions, and freelancers, and self-employed people, and people who own businesses that are shuttered.


This could not be less true.  Boomers have lost their RRIF's and unlike millenials, they don't have the rest of their lives to get over the financial hurdles.


Just add the 2020 depression to the ongoing list of hurdles that Millennials "have the rest of their lives toget over".

 -years of their career lost to the 2020 depression
 -years of their career lost due to the 2008 recession
 -years paying off student loans due to skyrocketing tuition fees
 -decreased capacity for savings due to increasing share of stagnant salaries being consumed by skyrocketing rents and real estate prices
 -increased requirement for retirement savings due to disappearance of employee pension plans.

For the Boomers the retirement goal was "Freedom 55"... for Millennials the retirement reality is Tombstone 85: you might get to stop working when you're dead.  Throwing in an economic collapse or global pandemic every 10 years or so isn't going to help.



 -k

Paris - London - New York - Kim City
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2020, 12:32:00 am »
You know Kimmy, I'm not going to change the goal posts about your generation being the one to be so hard done by.  I really tried to read your post with a straight face, but I can't take it seriously and I'm not getting baited into that discussion. 

My response to you earlier wasn't about boomer vs. millenial, it was variations of this:

If nobody is going to even try to convince me that the government's response isn't geared toward protecting the assets and savings of boomers, at least try and convince me that the government cares or even recognizes the financial opportunity lost to the young people because of this disaster. Come on. My faith in humanity depends on it.

Fuckers.

 -k

I broke it down to you about how boomers are not being coddled by the government.  In fact, they've been least supported by the government than any other group.

Here is the site:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/economic-response-plan.html






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Offline kimmy

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2020, 12:36:09 am »
Millions of people were out of work for years during the depression, and millions of those same people recovered financially, lived well, raised families, sent their kids to university. I myself was jobless and homeless st 50, unable to work for six months.  Four years later, I had a car, a townhouse, a decent (but not great) paying job.  Many people recover from financial devastation.  If you think your entire age cohort is forever screwed financially because some of them will be unemployed for a while, you are delusional. 

So first off it's not my age cohort. At 36 I'm either the oldest of Millennials or the youngest of Gen-X, I'm not sure which. I'm securely employed, I own a home that should be paid for before too much longer, and I'm doing okay. This isn't about me.  I'm not talking about myself when I say "young people". I'm much more concerned about people in their 20s. Imagine coming out of college into the worst economy we've seen in 80 years, and even jobs that young people used to be able to fall back on-- restaurants, retail, hospitality, tourism-- aren't even there because those industries are going to be ruined for years to come.  I was able to survive the 2008 recession by waitressing.  I don't know what I'd do in 2020. 


Your "sactifice" isn't saving Boomer riches,

What I said was actually that young people are sacrificing their economic well being for the sake of the health of the boomers and the elderly.

Government action is what I said is aimed at protecting the the assets of the well-off.  I'm fairly happy that real estate values aren't going to collapse, but that's mostly because I'm a home owner. (And I'm planning on hanging on to this property for a very long time, so I'm not too stressed about what the market price does for the next several years anyway.)  I'm fairly happy that the stock market hasn't collapsed, but that's because I have a lot of money sunk into RRSPs.

For somebody coming out of college with no assets, no job, no prospects of getting a job for a long time to come, I don't think I'd be very happy with what's being done.  If the best we can tell that new graduate is "well, you've got lots of years let to make up for this", that's pretty sad.

 -k
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2020, 12:40:37 am »
Trudeau and Morneau are bailing out companies based on the flimsiest criteria for qualification.  They are providing relief for anyone out of work in a way that self-employed and part-time workers can  get assistance.

I will pick apart their COVID policies because there is a lot to be picked apart, but I don't see how anyone with a good conscious could think that the benefits are going to the boomers when it seems like their biggest interest is protecting the working class (read - not seniors).

Offline kimmy

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2020, 12:43:58 am »
I broke it down to you about how boomers are not being coddled by the government.  In fact, they've been least supported by the government than any other group.


They're the wealthiest group of people in human history. They need the least support of any group.  Most have left the work force already and have no need for income support. They do so with considerable savings and assets, and in most cases pension plans.  You say the government has done less to support them than any other group, but the government efforts to maintain stability in the real estate market and the stock market seem like a major effort to protect the assets of the well-to-do in my opinion.

 -k
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2020, 12:52:09 am »

They're the wealthiest group of people in human history. They need the least support of any group.  Most have left the work force already and have no need for income support. They do so with considerable savings and assets, and in most cases pension plans.  You say the government has done less to support them than any other group, but the government efforts to maintain stability in the real estate market and the stock market seem like a major effort to protect the assets of the well-to-do in my opinion.

 -k

Their income is based on their assets and those assets just lost a lot of value.  That means they lost years of income since their assets are where they are withdrawing their income from.

It's no different than your bar-owner friends who are being asked to sit idle for a time, except that seniors don't get $2k/month when losing their income and they may not have the time to wait it out.

In the beginning Trudeau said they will make sure seniors don't lose everything they worked hard to save all their lives -- nothing came of it. 

They're not being forced to sell their RRIF's at a devalued price (minimum withdrawals) and help with grocery deliveries.  That's it.

There is nothing for them. 


Offline waldo

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2020, 01:09:26 am »
Preventing kimmy from going to the bar after work doesn't do anything to protect nursing home residents.
... at least try and convince me that the government cares or even recognizes the financial opportunity lost to the young people because of this disaster. Come on. My faith in humanity depends on it. Fuckers.
oh the humanity! You own it now - you own the selfish, self-serving, callous and uncaring comments you've made. "Open the bars, let the olders eat cake"!
While yourself and the waldo and various other smart-alecs around the internet have decided that "the cost" is that people can't go to the bar or get their hair done, it's a lot higher than that.

... there's also the human cost. Seniors can't see their friends for their weekly bridge game or coffee and gripe sessions.

good on ya! I thought you were heartless... but your expressed concern for senior bridge players can tally up against your rife enthusiasm for the cull! Oh, wait... that can't include bridge playing seniors in care homes, right... or are they just collateral damage to you?

you threw down a request to, "recognize the financial opportunity lost to the young people". Here's one for you:

=>member kimmy, what conditions/requirements, if any, do you believe should be in place... before restrictions/shutdowns are eliminated? I trust your response will give consideration to the reality of asymptomatic carriers of the virus... as well as the more recent raised concerns over "some number" of released recovered patients who retest as positive while showing no symptoms (again, asymptomatic carriers).

name your conditions/requirements member kimmy - name them!


Offline BC_cheque

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2020, 01:35:11 am »
Peoples' mental health is suffering, marriages are being strained, domestic violence and alcoholism and suicide will all be on the rise. The effects of isolation are going to cost peoples' lives too, you can take that to the bank.  Don't be so cavalier about dismissing the impact this is having on people.

I would never dismiss or be cavalier about the mental health issues this is having because I'm living them.  I'm losing my ****.

No they're not financial troubles (yet) but I'm home with two kids who are also going nuts, and when they're gone I'm working my butt off to meet deadlines.  I'm the controller so I know that the company is not doing as well as management lets on and I wonder if we're going to survive the year. 

My house is never clean anymore and I've lost 30% of my net worth.  None of my clothes fit anymore because I was stress eating when lockdown first started and I'm drinking way more than I should.

I don't know how I'll ever get my kids to accept restricted screen time again, and I'm yelling at them way too much.  When I'm not, I'm crying to myself.

Everyone I know is going through some ****, this isn't easy for anyone of any age.

Then I think about the people living in fear in long term care centres.  Nothing you and I are feeling could compare to the fear they must be feeling.

I've cursed out a lot of things in this time, but letting the death rates to their thing just so I can get my sanity back isn't even a remote possibility.  We are all in this together.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2020, 06:36:05 am »
Many or most boomers have employee pension plans to rely on, in addition to their savings.  Employee pension plans are of course a thing of the past now, except for government workers.

Everybody's retirement savings just took a big hit, but things are already rising again thanks to government action.

The government is providing much-needed help, for people who qualify, but isn't going to make up for what people are losing. Especially people who rely on tips, and people who rely on commissions, and freelancers, and self-employed people, and people who own businesses that are shuttered.

Boomers are a lucky generation.  Millennials, Gen X, and the parents of boomers (who fought WWII and went through the Great Depression) were less so.  So what?  Tough sh!t, it's the luck of the draw, that's life.  We can change structural policies to help millennials, but we have enough groups resenting each other right now i don't think we should add generational resentment to that.  Millenials are single-handedly destroying the fabric of our political and social culture with their ridiculous identity-politics BS, there's enough reason for everyone to resent them too.  But we shouldn't, every individual should be judged on their own merits.

The real estate market has dipped, as have mortgage rates, there will be a lot of smart millennials who still have jobs that will be be able to get into real estate now and make a lot on their home too.  They'll be alive after this is over and don't have to fight WWII.  Everyone's a victim of something, just deal yo.
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Offline waldo

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2020, 08:35:21 am »
member kimmy... an important phrase, from an important (prior?) member Shady, "Important Read" - so important I've had an epiphany and might... might be persuaded to come around to your expressed concerns; with your endorsement, I'm willing to press the case for urgent action towards children - the lil' phackers!

now, in a prior post above and several in the 'Outbreak' thread, I've railed on about asymptomatic carriers not receiving notice due! A relatively recent paper published in The Lancet's Infectious Diseases journal is an... Important Read: certainly, healthy children are at a low risk for dying from Covid-19 but this evidence is monumental in stating children can and are being infected as both symptomatic and asymptomatic transmitters of the virus:

Quote
The most important finding to come from the present analysis is the clear evidence that children are susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 infection, but frequently do not have notable disease, raising the possibility that children could be facilitators of viral transmission. If children are important in viral transmission and amplification, social and public health policies (eg, avoiding interaction with elderly people) could be established to slow transmission and protect vulnerable populations. There is an urgent need to for further investigation of the role children have in the chain of transmission.

member kimmy, the paper's statement on the need... urgent need for further investigation is just another time-wasting call by those sciencyFolk! In these pressing times, this evidence puts a whole different emphasis on the idiom, "think of the children, think of the children"! Something needs to be done now; right now!

Offline waldo

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2020, 10:59:55 am »



Trump calls protesters against stay-at-home orders 'very responsible' --- President tweeted that Minnesota, Michigan and Virginia should be ‘liberated’ after demonstrations against social distancing

Quote
At Friday’s White House coronavirus taskforce briefing, Trump played down fears that by crowding together, the protesters themselves could spread the Covid-19 illness. “These are people expressing their views,” he told reporters. “I see where they are and I see the way they’re working. They seem to be very responsible people to me, but they’ve been treated a little bit rough.”

In 2017 the president was condemned for reacting to a deadly clash between white nationalists and counter-protesters in Charlottesville, Virginia, by observing that there “were very fine people on both sides”.

On Friday, Trump also stood by his criticism of the Democratic governors, even though they are following his own federal guidelines. “I think some things are too tough,” he said. “And if you look at some of the states you just mentioned, it’s too tough, not only in reference to this but what they’ve done in Virginia with respect to the second amendment is just a horrible thing ... When you see what other states have done, I think I feel very comfortable.”

Offline kimmy

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2020, 12:43:27 pm »
member kimmy... an important phrase, from an important (prior?) member Shady, "Important Read" - so important I've had an epiphany and might... might be persuaded to come around to your expressed concerns; with your endorsement, I'm willing to press the case for urgent action towards children - the lil' phackers!

now, in a prior post above and several in the 'Outbreak' thread, I've railed on about asymptomatic carriers not receiving notice due! A relatively recent paper published in The Lancet's Infectious Diseases journal is an... Important Read: certainly, healthy children are at a low risk for dying from Covid-19 but this evidence is monumental in stating children can and are being infected as both symptomatic and asymptomatic transmitters of the virus:

member kimmy, the paper's statement on the need... urgent need for further investigation is just another time-wasting call by those sciencyFolk! In these pressing times, this evidence puts a whole different emphasis on the idiom, "think of the children, think of the children"! Something needs to be done now; right now!

Children spread viruses?  Whoa, stop the presses! Thank goodness we have the Lancet to tell us that! 

Given that this is possibly the least surprising finding of this whole pandemic, what do you want us to do with this information?


 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2020, 01:07:45 pm »

Offline Omni

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2020, 01:18:53 pm »


It is frightening how amazingly ignorant and arrogant some people can be in the face of such a serious issue as we now face. I guess they just didn't pass grade school science and I guess also the best outcome will be if they all get the virus and die from it. Or these crazy bastards blow their own heads off.