Author Topic: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts  (Read 4383 times)

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Offline eyeball

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2020, 12:17:46 pm »
It isn't anybody's fault... nobody on this side of the ocean, at least.


 -k
I don't know, we have sorta been sitting here like a flock of fat and stupid sitting ducks. Who's fault is that?  I could probably start 150 threads on that question...it would probably require it's own forum maybe eventually a whole new internet to encompass the civil war it would generate.

Online the_squid

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2020, 12:49:14 pm »
I don't know, we have sorta been sitting here like a flock of fat and stupid sitting ducks. Who's fault is that?  I could probably start 150 threads on that question...it would probably require it's own forum maybe eventually a whole new internet to encompass the civil war it would generate.

Maybe Iím just not understanding what you mean by ďstupid sitting ducksĒ.

If youíve just been sitting there uninformed about the virus, then you clearly havenít been paying attention.  The measures are quite clear and the response to this has been all-encompassing.  In fact, people like Kimmy complain about how the measures have been too harsh.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 01:47:20 pm by the_squid »

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2020, 05:07:24 pm »
The boomers will go back to their stock portfolios and pensions, and go back to golfing with their buddies. Young people will have nothing except the knowledge that they did something good for their society. 

This could not be less true.  Boomers have lost their RRIF's and unlike millenials, they don't have the rest of their lives to get over the financial hurdles.

While the government is providing CERB for the working population, the only thing they've offered for seniors is to eliminate the mandatory minimum RRIF withdrawals.

There is no help for them because they didn't have income to begin with and if you think OAS and CPP amount to anything, you're mistaken.  My parents get ~$1200 for OAS/CPP (for both of them) per month.

They relied on their RRIF which just shrank by one year's worth of withdrawals.

And on top of it, we have people like you and OP, who say their lives aren't really that important because you want to go to the bar.  Seriously WTF.
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Online the_squid

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2020, 06:03:38 pm »
This could not be less true.  Boomers have lost their RRIF's and unlike millenials, they don't have the rest of their lives to get over the financial hurdles.

While the government is providing CERB for the working population, the only thing they've offered for seniors is to eliminate the mandatory minimum RRIF withdrawals.

There is no help for them because they didn't have income to begin with and if you think OAS and CPP amount to anything, you're mistaken.  My parents get ~$1200 for OAS/CPP (for both of them) per month.

They relied on their RRIF which just shrank by one year's worth of withdrawals.

And on top of it, we have people like you and OP, who say their lives aren't really that important because you want to go to the bar.  Seriously WTF.

Apparently, theyíve lived a good life where everything was handed to them and now itís time for them to die so that  young people donít need to sacrifice their lifestyle for a few weeks/months while the pandemic plays itself out.

Offline eyeball

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2020, 06:54:31 pm »
Maybe Iím just not understanding what you mean by ďstupid sitting ducksĒ.

We left our society open to this danger by trucking and trading with the most dangerous dictatorship on the planet and swallowing hook line and sinker the notion we had no choice.

Quote
If youíve just been sitting there uninformed about the virus, then you clearly havenít been paying attention.  The measures are quite clear and the response to this has been all-encompassing.  In fact, people like Kimmy complain about how the measures have been too harsh.
I was paying attention to the danger China represents years and years ago and I strongly suspect people like kimmy and you would complain bitterly about the measures I'd have taken to protect us from that threat.  Like no truck nor trade with them. Zero. Until such time as China cleans up its act.

Look, it's really simply what happened here. A politician in China by the name of Xi Jinping who was afraid of criticism and had the capacity to act according to his interests did just that and people died. Then he went about casting blame on others.  Pretty much the same thing happened here where politicians with their own interests guiding them them left us unprepared.

Our response to this in Canada has been very encompassing and I'm grateful for it and I hope we keep it up.  It'll be interesting to see if we can keep it up well beyond this by taking some very serious action against China's dictatorship and the danger it presents.  I think to do that however we're going to have to take some serious action against the way we govern ourselves and I'm pretty sure that means eliminating the capacity politicians have for putting their politics first. By blowing the doors off all the back rooms they sneak around in.

Maybe Chinese people will take a clue.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2020, 07:27:50 pm »
We left our society open to this danger by trucking and trading with the most dangerous dictatorship on the planet and swallowing hook line and sinker the notion we had no choice.
I was paying attention to the danger China represents years and years ago and I strongly suspect people like kimmy and you would complain bitterly about the measures I'd have taken to protect us from that threat.  Like no truck nor trade with them. Zero. Until such time as China cleans up its act.

Look, it's really simply what happened here. A politician in China by the name of Xi Jinping who was afraid of criticism and had the capacity to act according to his interests did just that and people died. Then he went about casting blame on others.  Pretty much the same thing happened here where politicians with their own interests guiding them them left us unprepared.

Our response to this in Canada has been very encompassing and I'm grateful for it and I hope we keep it up.  It'll be interesting to see if we can keep it up well beyond this by taking some very serious action against China's dictatorship and the danger it presents.  I think to do that however we're going to have to take some serious action against the way we govern ourselves and I'm pretty sure that means eliminating the capacity politicians have for putting their politics first. By blowing the doors off all the back rooms they sneak around in.

Maybe Chinese people will take a clue.

China has been seen as a rising threat for decades.  Nobody did anything about it because it made people a lot of money, especially rich well-connected people.  Trump was elected in part because the elite establishment would not put a check on China like Trump has tried.  It takes a narcissist with more balls than are good for him to do something like that. 

We need to put China in check before they become even more powerful.  We need to force them into a box and not let them out until they clean up their act as you say.  We also need to be careful because a new regime could be even worse.  The economic pain in the short-term is worth the economic and security gains in the longterm.

At least we're on agreement on this.  Yes we need to clean up the corruption in our politics & remove the big money, that's why I'd want Bernie for POTUS.  He's a patriot, he'd take a bullet to do it.  The US and Canada have become their own worst enemies now, rotting from within, interesting times we live in.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Online the_squid

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! It’s just killing old farts
« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2020, 07:40:00 pm »
We left our society open to this danger by trucking and trading with the most dangerous dictatorship on the planet and swallowing hook line and sinker the notion we had no choice.
I was paying attention to the danger China represents years and years ago and I strongly suspect people like kimmy and you would complain bitterly about the measures I'd have taken to protect us from that threat.  Like no truck nor trade with them. Zero. Until such time as China cleans up its act.

Look, it's really simply what happened here. A politician in China by the name of Xi Jinping who was afraid of criticism and had the capacity to act according to his interests did just that and people died. Then he went about casting blame on others.  Pretty much the same thing happened here where politicians with their own interests guiding them them left us unprepared.

Our response to this in Canada has been very encompassing and I'm grateful for it and I hope we keep it up.  It'll be interesting to see if we can keep it up well beyond this by taking some very serious action against China's dictatorship and the danger it presents.  I think to do that however we're going to have to take some serious action against the way we govern ourselves and I'm pretty sure that means eliminating the capacity politicians have for putting their politics first. By blowing the doors off all the back rooms they sneak around in.

Maybe Chinese people will take a clue.


Here’s something from MLW that I posted a long time ago.  I still hold to it.

Quote
China

I have not bought anything from China for years. Buying shoes is difficult... but not impossible.

Toy recalls... melamine, lead... sweat-shops... Human rights.... all reasons I do this.

Walmart

I won't go there. Don't like their labour practices, their products or their shoppers.


I have no issues with Canada boycotting China.  I already do myself.

Offline MH

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2020, 08:18:16 pm »
1. China has been seen as a rising threat for decades.  Nobody did anything about it because it made people a lot of money, especially rich well-connected people.  Trump was elected in part because the elite establishment would not put a check on China like Trump has tried.  It takes a narcissist with more balls than are good for him to do something like that. 

2. We need to put China in check before they become even more powerful.  We need to force them into a box and not let them out until they clean up their act as you say.  We also need to be careful because a new regime could be even worse.  The economic pain in the short-term is worth the economic and security gains in the longterm.

3. At least we're on agreement on this.  Yes we need to clean up the corruption in our politics & remove the big money, that's why I'd want Bernie for POTUS.  He's a patriot, he'd take a bullet to do it.  The US and Canada have become their own worst enemies now, rotting from within, interesting times we live in.

1. There's something to this, but the statement also stinks of zero-sum game.   Trump's ideas on trade are ill-informed: the states can't "stand up" to China and "win". 

2. Show me someone who has viable alternative. 

3. The US and Canada have vastly different amounts of 'big money' in politics. 

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2020, 08:51:50 pm »
1. There's something to this, but the statement also stinks of zero-sum game.   Trump's ideas on trade are ill-informed: the states can't "stand up" to China and "win". 

2. Show me someone who has viable alternative. 

3. The US and Canada have vastly different amounts of 'big money' in politics.

1.  Terms of trade are negotiated.  NAFTA is negotiated and isn't simply a "free trade" agreement.  Negotiations are based on leverage.  If the US wants better terms of trade, they need to negotiate and use their economic leverage to get the best deal for America's interests.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline Omni

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2020, 09:01:25 pm »
1.  Terms of trade are negotiated.  NAFTA is negotiated and isn't simply a "free trade" agreement.  Negotiations are based on leverage.  If the US wants better terms of trade, they need to negotiate and use their economic leverage to get the best deal for America's interests.

NAFTA has nothing to do with China. And yes it allows competition between favored nations but removes tariffs.

Offline eyeball

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #70 on: April 15, 2020, 09:49:01 pm »

Hereís something from MLW that I posted a long time ago.  I still hold to it.


I have no issues with Canada boycotting China.  I already do myself.
Well, I'm sorry for saying what I said then and I'll probably catch some well deserved hell from Kimmy too.
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Offline JuniperRose

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2020, 10:45:11 pm »
I mean, really nothing you're posting here is changing my view that young people aren't sacrificing their economic well being for the sake of the health of boomers and the elderly.

 -k

Millions of people were out of work for years during the depression, and millions of those same people recovered financially, lived well, raised families, sent their kids to university. I myself was jobless and homeless st 50, unable to work for six months.  Four years later, I had a car, a townhouse, a decent (but not great) paying job.  Many people recover from financial devastation.  If you think your entire age cohort is forever screwed financially because some of them will be unemployed for a while, you are delusional. 

If you think Boomers are all sitting pretty on stock portfolios and vast real estate holdings, you are, again, delusional.   In 2017, the median income for people between 55 and 64 was just over $41,000.  For people 65+, it was $28,000.  Its true that I have this townhouse in a low-rent district of Metro Vancouver,  but I have nothing else and I suspect this crisis will wipe out any equity I've gained.  It looks like I'm destined to retire into poverty, which I think is preferable to dying during a pandemic. 

Your "sactifice" isn't saving Boomer riches, its saving our health care system and our front line medical staff.  An operational health care system is just as important for people who overdose on alcohol, get injured in a bar fight, a car accident, have a heart attack, appendicitis - or even for someone who just wants to give birth - as it is to an old fart who contracts covid.  If 10s of thousands of Canadians die or become unable to work, not just from Covid, but also because our health care system collapsed, do you think that's going to be good for the economy?

Yes, people are going to suffer, some more than others,  some will lose both job and loved ones.  If the worst is a few months or a couple of years of financial hardship - yeah it's tough - but there is no hardship worse than losing someone you love.   
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Offline waldo

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2020, 12:27:26 am »
haven't yet found any like Canadian polling...


Offline kimmy

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2020, 10:12:31 pm »
haven't yet found any like Canadian polling...



I saw similar numbers for Canada yesterday in some CBC article.  For now, a large majority of Canadians favor a cautious, safety first approach.  I expect that as this drags on, peoples' patience will start to wear thin.

If we're in late summer and people start to understand that a vaccine is still a year away at the earliest, I don't think the idea that we have to wait for a vaccine to go back to our lives is going to be popular anymore.  Peoples' willingness to cooperate with social distancing measures depends on maintaining the goodwill of the general public, and that will be heavily strained as the toll of isolation wears people down.  If we reach September and kids can't go back to school, that's not going to help. If we reach December and people are stuck in their homes in the darkest days of winter with nowhere to go, peoples' morale is going to hit rock bottom.  I strongly suspect that the mantra that "we can't go back to normal until there's a vaccine" is not going to last for more than a few months longer.


 -k
Masked for your safety.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: BACK TO WORK!! Itís just killing old farts
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2020, 11:00:32 pm »
And on top of it, we have people like you and OP, who say their lives aren't really that important because you want to go to the bar.  Seriously WTF.

I hope that made you feel better. Enjoy the warm fuzzy indignation, go post about it in Michael's"GRRRR!  Outrage Culture!" topic. "GRRR! I'm outraged that SOME PEOPLE want old-people to die so that they can go back to watching sportsball at the bar!"

I've gotten that several times in this thread, and I've seen it elsewhere as well, directed at people who question whether banning social gatherings and human interaction and many kinds of commerce and business for the foreseeable future is worth the cost. 

People think it's hilarious that "Karen" is mad that she can't get her hair done, but probably haven't considered that "Karen's" hairdresser is at home wondering how she's going to feed her family on the government assistance she receives.

While yourself and the waldo and various other smart-alecs around the internet have decided that "the cost" is that people can't go to the bar or get their hair done, it's a lot higher than that.

Leaving aside the people whose livelihoods have been lost and businesses that are shuttered and might never reopen, there's also the human cost. Seniors can't see their friends for their weekly bridge game or coffee and gripe sessions. Peewee hockey players might be old enough to vote by the time youth sports is able to resume. Weekly religious services are important to many people, but they're closed now. An endless variety of cultural and entertainment and recreational events are shut down-- everything from concerts and theatre to continuing education classes to movies and sports. Health and fitness facilities, gyms, yoga classes.  How do you have a wedding during this?  How do people date now?    What about school?  What about college?

You guys seem to think an ongoing ban on gatherings over 10 people is trivial or funny. But in dismissing this as a few people being mad that they can't go out and get drunk is incredibly dismissive to an incredibly wide variety of human activities.  Peoples' mental health is suffering, marriages are being strained, domestic violence and alcoholism and suicide will all be on the rise. The effects of isolation are going to cost peoples' lives too, you can take that to the bank.  Don't be so cavalier about dismissing the impact this is having on people.

 -k
Masked for your safety.