Author Topic: An activist PM and government  (Read 1070 times)

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2018, 10:15:40 pm »
Thatís not what the PM is doing at all.

Why am I not surprised?
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2018, 10:16:52 pm »
But they werenít outside this trial.   They were about this trial

I disagree, go back and listen to his entire statement. The trial may bring currency to the issues he is talking about but the issues are about the system and not the specific trial.

If the Boushies are looking to "get justice" from Trudeau, as you imply, they will be disappointed.

Offline wilber

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2018, 10:25:40 pm »
Hence the need to discuss, outside of this specific trial, the inherent systemic biases. That is what native Canadians, the Prime Minister, and I are talking about.

I think that rather than comment right after the trial, regardless of how he feels about this verdict, he should have just been taking steps to improve the system. He is the PM after all, that's his job.

So far, no action, just words that serve to undermine the justice system with no blueprint for improvement. Typical.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2018, 10:37:51 pm »
I disagree, go back and listen to his entire statement. The trial may bring currency to the issues he is talking about but the issues are about the system and not the specific trial.

Thatís nonsense.  The PM and the Justice Minister made comments specific to the verdict.   To say otherwise is stunningly hyper partisan. 

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If the Boushies are looking to "get justice" from Trudeau, as you imply, they will be disappointed.

They should make what they say public.   How does anyone now they didnít meet about their specific case?   In fact, to think otherwise is bizarre.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2018, 11:14:42 pm »
Thatís nonsense.  The PM and the Justice Minister made comments specific to the verdict.   To say otherwise is stunningly hyper partisan. 

They should make what they say public.   How does anyone now they didnít meet about their specific case?   In fact, to think otherwise is bizarre.

I would say not to listen to the source quotes, and make broad assumptions that are unrelated to them is hyper partisan

So when an oil company executive meets with the Prime Minister, must that also be made public? Any and all meeting with the Prime Minister must be on the books? When the Prime Minister meets with the families of fallen soldiers, we need cameras there?

Offline TimG

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2018, 11:23:40 pm »
The problem is the allotments for peremptory challenges. If we had only challenge for cause, or an extremely limited number of peremptory challenges (ie. one) then we might not be in this mess always. The exact same thing occurs when it is a native Canadian on trial and the crown makes peremptory challenges (based on race).
Cutting the number without cause is fine. Going to a US style system where every juror is put through intense analysis while both sides try to rig the jury to suit them is not a good idea. It would only slow the process down for everyone - a process that is already too slow.

I am worried that we will end up with another abomination like we got after the Ghomeshi trial where the accused is now compelled to hand over any evidence they may have that shows the accuser is lying to the crown in advance which simply allows the liars to avoid being exposed in court as liars.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 11:40:08 pm by TimG »

Online Omni

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2018, 11:51:10 pm »
Cutting the number without cause is fine. Going to a US style system where every juror is put through intense analysis while both sides try to rig the jury to suit them is not a good idea. It would only slow the process down for everyone - a process that is already too slow.

I am worried that we will end up with another abomination like we got after the Ghomeshi trial where the accused is now compelled to hand over any evidence they may have that shows the accuser is lying to the crown in advance which simply allows the liars to avoid being exposed in court as liars.

What makes you think attorneys don't challenge/dismiss jurors in the same fashion they do in the US?

Offline TimG

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2018, 11:58:19 pm »
What makes you think attorneys don't challenge/dismiss jurors in the same fashion they do in the US?
https://www.cnn.com/2015/02/13/us/gallery/long-jury-selection/index.html

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Jury selection in the trial of accused Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has taken longer than the judge had expected. For several weeks, prospective jurors have each taken a turn in the hot seat, being questioned by U.S. District Judge George A. O'Toole and attorneys for the prosecution and defense, as Tsarnaev, second from right in this court sketch, listened. But this case isn't the longest jury selection ever, by far. Although no one appears to keep official records on such matters, several infamous cases over the years have taken months to pick a jury, and longtime jury consultant Jo-Ellan Dimitrius recalls one jury selection that took the better part of a year.
The US system allows lawyers to grill potential jurors to look for bias they don't like. In the Canada system there are only peremptory challenges with some 'with cause' when a lawyer happens to know something about the juror. It is more efficient and it is not clear it produces worse juries than the US system.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 12:00:30 am by TimG »

Online Omni

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2018, 12:08:18 am »
https://www.cnn.com/2015/02/13/us/gallery/long-jury-selection/index.html
The US system allows lawyers to grill potential jurors to look for bias they don't like. In the Canada system there are only peremptory challenges with some 'with cause' when a lawyer happens to know something about the juror. It is more efficient and it is not clear it produces worse juries than the US system.

Lawyers in Canada can excersise their peremptory challenges at will. The numbers of those vary from 12 to 20. What is important is to have a cross sectional jury pool to begin with. 

Offline the_squid

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2018, 12:51:24 am »
I would say not to listen to the source quotes, and make broad assumptions that are unrelated to them is hyper partisan


The PM was the one who tweeted and made statements.   The meeting with the family is completely innapropriate. 

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So when an oil company executive meets with the Prime Minister, must that also be made public? Any and all meeting with the Prime Minister must be on the books?

Damn straight!!!


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When the Prime Minister meets with the families of fallen soldiers, we need cameras there?

You are equating drunken thieves to fallen soldiers.....   way to go!   ::)

Offline John Mark Taylor

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2018, 07:36:14 am »
At this point litterally the entire indigenous population is outraged by this verdict.  I donít think itís b hind the scope for the PM to address that.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2018, 10:54:44 am »
The Magna Carta was about barons having their land disputes with the King influenced by other barons.

Yes, and this then evolved into ordinary people being judged for their crimes by a jury of THEIR peers. It is in common law, not an Americanism. And it is still an expensive, time-consuming brake on governments imposing unfair laws on citizens.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2018, 10:58:44 am »
You give me a cite from a different province on a different case....    Come on....  try a little harder.

Provide a cite that says natives didnít show for jury duty for that case.    We already know there were several natives in the pool who were all dismissed.

I gave you a cite from a left leaning news organization talking about the 'reluctance' natives who live on reserves have for showing up for jury duty. I find it highly unlikely this is an Ontario-only issue and feel it's more than adequate to support my previous statement. I don't feel this is a be-all/end-all to the argument of why natives aren't on juries more, but it's certainly a contributing factor.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2018, 11:00:52 am »
You donít have sympathy for criminals....except white murderers, which evidently according to your post here, deserve more sympathy than native burglars.

You were there? You read the court transcripts? Listened to the witnesses? Saw the evidence? Oh, you saw a news story. Yeah, that's how we judge guilt or innocence in this country.  ::)
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2018, 11:04:22 am »
At this point litterally the entire indigenous population is outraged by this verdict.  I donít think itís b hind the scope for the PM to address that.

Maybe we should look to why they're outraged because I doubt its this particular case. I know the entire non-indigenous community wouldn't be outraged if a group of drunken white kids went to a native farmer's property to steal stuff and one of them got shot.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum