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Author Topic: An activist PM and government  (Read 3342 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2018, 08:54:18 pm »
What gets lost is this debate is these yahoos were on this guy's farm with weapons to steal stuff. That act is what made brandishing a gun a reasonable action given the circumstances. This introduces huge amounts if doubt into the question of manslaughter and there was no evidence that he deliberately pulled the trigger. So it is hard to see how any jury that had not appointed itself a social justice lynch mob could have convicted.


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Offline ?Impact

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2018, 09:01:57 pm »
Quote from: TimG on February 12, 2018, 08:54:18 pm
there was no evidence that he deliberately pulled the trigger

Reasonable doubt is not the same thing as no evidence. We should refrain from reading into a jury decision our own biases.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2018, 09:04:57 pm »
TimG - that’s another  topic.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 09:06:01 pm »
I certainly have not examined the facts of the Bouchie case enough to have any opinion at all.

However, I do recall that after the Ghomeshi trial people were outraged by the verdict and were demanding that the justice system be "fixed" so that the next Ghomeshi would be convicted.

 And that's wrong.  Because when you look at the facts presented at trial, a not guilty verdict was the only reasonable outcome.  Ghomeshi being acquitted does NOT show that the system is broken.  There might be things that could be done to improve the way sexual assault cases could be prosecuted, but that's a discussion independent of Ghomeshi's guilt or innocence.

Likewise Gerald Stanley. It's reasonable to have a discussion about whether the police or the legal system fail native victims.  But it's not reasonable to declare that "the system doesn't work!" on the basis of a verdict that didn't go the way some people wanted it to. And it's not reasonable for politicians to attack the credibility of our legal system on the basis of a verdict that's unpopular.


 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 09:06:16 pm »
Quote from: JMT on February 12, 2018, 08:20:48 pm
He's spent a lot of money on clean water.  That's certainly a start.

Has he ?  Is there somewhere we can go to track his record on indigenous affairs ?  I feel that that's the test I want to apply to this government.  I can't tell if there doing anything or not.  They seem to rely on his offhanded comments and photo ops to communicate policy somehow. 

Am I wrong ?
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Offline kimmy

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 09:08:13 pm »
Quote from: ?Impact on February 12, 2018, 09:01:57 pm
Reasonable doubt is not the same thing as no evidence. We should refrain from reading into a jury decision our own biases.

Yay!  You're back! :D

 -k
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 09:09:29 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on February 12, 2018, 08:24:32 pm
Legally, lawyers can reject jurors for any reason whatsoever

Agreed, in Canada the concept of impartiality in a jury is only supported by the fact that both crown and defense can reject jurors for any reason whatsoever (they don't need to specify their reason either). The hope is that it will balance out in the end, but that is hardly the case when it comes to issues like race. Technically the crown could reject all "white" jurors, but then we would have a stalemate in juror selection.
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Offline TimG

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 09:17:59 pm »
Quote from: ?Impact on February 12, 2018, 09:09:29 pm
Technically the crown could reject all "white" jurors, but then we would have a stalemate in juror selection.
No, because the number of objections is limited. Eventually both sides would exhaust their allotments and they would get whoever is in the pool. Before we go rushing to change jury selection based on one case it worth remembering that SCC has put a 30 month limit on trials an introducing a more complex jury selection process like they have in the US would only increase the time and cost of trials (and by implication increase the number of accused let go because the process took too long).
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Offline Omni

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 09:20:07 pm »
Quote from: TimG on February 12, 2018, 08:54:18 pm
What gets lost is this debate is these yahoos were on this guy's farm with weapons to steal stuff. That act is what made brandishing a gun a reasonable action given the circumstances. This introduces huge amounts if doubt into the question of manslaughter and there was no evidence that he deliberately pulled the trigger. So it is hard to see how any jury that had not appointed itself a social justice lynch mob could have convicted.

If he would have deliberately pulled the trigger then the 2nd degree could have reasonably been arrived at. You can't shoot people in this country because you think they are stealing your property. Pointing a gun at somebody does put them in danger and so if you do that you best have a good reason to do so. Apparently his gun went off unintentionally and so that's why he was acquitted. I suspect there will be an appeal case.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 09:24:33 pm »
Quote
I suspect there will be an appeal case.

How does Crown appeal now that the Justice Minister and PM have essentially said what outcome they want a jury or judge to find?
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 09:26:25 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on February 12, 2018, 07:55:02 pm
When you call indigenous reconciliation “activism,” you completely ignore the findings of the royal commission and more broadly the purpose of royal commissions.

And that's a bad thing?
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 09:27:02 pm »
Quote from: JMT on February 12, 2018, 07:59:20 pm
I think this is something I would have said not all that long ago.  I think that it's a very white thing to say.  The jury was racist, even if they weren't discriminatory.  The entire system is racist, even if it doesn't mean to be.  Having a partner that has brown skin has shown me the error in my past beliefs.

Which is all complete bullshit, of course.
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Offline JMT

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 09:28:15 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on February 12, 2018, 09:27:02 pm
Which is all complete bullshit, of course.

And that is something I would expect you to say.  Such is life.
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Offline Omni

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 09:28:19 pm »
Quote from: TimG on February 12, 2018, 09:17:59 pm
No, because the number of objections is limited. Eventually both sides would exhaust their allotments and they would get whoever is in the pool. Before we go rushing to change jury selection based on one case it worth remembering that SCC has put a 30 month limit on trials an introducing a more complex jury selection process like they have in the US would only increase the time and cost of trials (and by implication increase the number of accused let go because the process took too long).

You don't need a lot of peremptory challenges to get rid of any indigineous people when you have such a less than diverse jury pool to choose from.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: An activist PM and government
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 09:30:13 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on February 12, 2018, 08:13:37 pm
Fair treatment under the law? That’s too much to ask? They’re disadvantaged by the perception of their indigenous being from the time they interact with a cop on the street right brought sentencing. When controlling for like-characteristics (age, education, accusation, etc), they face harsher treatment. It is necessary that we remedy that kind of injustice that stems from prejudiced expectations of indigenous character.

This is the same bullshit claim made by the BLM crowd. "Hey, just because we commit WAY more crime and WAY more violent crime, like WAY out of proportion to our numbers in the general population, that's no reason why we should be going to jail all the time!"

Mind, I'm perfectly willing to adjust the sentences to house native or black gangmembers and  killers in the houses of social justice warriors and their families.
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