Author Topic: Addressing climate change  (Read 7700 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #165 on: July 30, 2019, 07:36:21 am »
Wow. Generalized and stereotyped.
The IRC [Indian Resource Council] represents 134 First Nations that have oil and gas resources on their land.
Not all First Nations communities fit your stereotype. The Indian Resource Council has existed since 1987. These are in western provinces with experience in oil and gas.

First Nations with experience in oil and gas are not using sustainable economies.  Find me some indigenous communities in Canada that have successful  economies that are also environmentally sustainable.  I doubt any exist, and if they do, are extremely rare.

Wow. That's pretty ... !!!

It's the truth.  I'm sure you and your family wouldn't like to live like the vast majority of First Nations communities do either.

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Ya, you could learn some manners.

You're in no position to lecture anyone about manners.

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I find this all pretty bigoted.
There are lots of successful Indigenous business people, PG. Your knowledge is minimal, and very stereotyped.

Facts aren't bigoted, but is sometimes uncomfortable, we shouldn't sugarcoat the truth for the PC police. Sure there are successful indigenous business people, but that's a strawman as i'm not talking about individuals i'm talking about communities.  Show me all of these many economically successful indigenous communities that are environmentally sustainable.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #166 on: July 30, 2019, 07:45:41 am »
What we've built isn't sustainable. We need a better model for our economy.
...
We need to get more intelligent.than destroying the earth and the systems that sustain us.

Yes i agree.  My argument is that we won't find the solution in aboriginal economies because they have found sustainability in pre-industrial economic ways of life.  I'm sure there are some if not many things we can learn from them, but what we need are sustainable solutions to industrial economies.  Things like green energy and ways to power cities and vehicles etc.
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Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #167 on: July 30, 2019, 08:13:08 pm »
First Nations with experience in oil and gas are not using sustainable economies. Find me some indigenous communities in Canada that have successful  economies that are also environmentally sustainable.  I doubt any exist, and if they do, are extremely rare.

It's the truth.  I'm sure you and your family wouldn't like to live like the vast majority of First Nations communities do either.

You're in no position to lecture anyone about manners.

Facts aren't bigoted, but is sometimes uncomfortable, we shouldn't sugarcoat the truth for the PC police. Sure there are successful indigenous business people, but that's a strawman as i'm not talking about individuals i'm talking about communities.  Show me all of these many economically successful indigenous communities that are environmentally sustainable.

Indigenous Peoples struggle under burdens that our governments and society have placed on them. What you refer to is the First Nations societies that WE have created through destruction. I see no acknowledgement of that in your denigrating post of drive-by smears. It isn't "fact": You haven't provided facts, just your opinions that seem quite uninformed, biased and dismissive to me.
 First Nations governments, Elected Band Councils, are Canada's governments, forcibly imposed on Indigenous Peoples in the 1920's.

The article posted is referring to traditional Indigenous knowledge of Mother Earth. For example, there is a reason that our Treaties allow us to live on/use the land "to a plough's depth": Because disturbing the earth, disrupting the earth's systems, is dangerous to humans and destructive to the earth that sustains us.

In addition to genocide, we have destroyed the environment that sustained Indigenous Peoples:
- Killed all the buffalo so they couldn't live off them anymore ... and so they wouldn't interfere with the railway and farming.
- Clearcut the forests ... "The trees are gone, the animals are gone, the geese don't come anymore."
- Contaminated the watersheds with mining, oil, gas, etc., so they can't even drink the water or eat the fish.
- Contaminated land and water with livestock/farming chemicals and depleted the soil with over-use.

We like to think of the North as clean and pristine, but the reality is that there are few northern communities that are not polluted in some way by the unsustainable, destructive resource-based economy that we have imposed in Canada, that make it unlikely that for Indigenous people and ourselves to live off the land.

Now ... we have to seek a balance of taking from the earth and giving back, and Traditional Indigenous knowledge, based in thousands of years of living sustainably, is a good source of information to assist with that.

The earth is not a static blob of matter, but living systems: Coal is the liver of the earth, collecting impurities and toxins. Digging coal is disrupting the ability of the earth to cleanse itself. Burning toxic coal is poisoning ourselves and the land, spreading those toxins throughout the air, soil and waters ... and depleting the coal that would cleanse it.
Etc, for gold, silver, gems, oil, gas  ... all serve a purpose in sustaining the earth's systems so that the earth can sustain itself and human life.

There are many delicate balances in nature that we have ignored, while scrabbling for the 'easy money' by simply cutting/digging/drilling out and selling the earth's valuable commodities ... 'chewing off our own arms' ... making the earth uninhabitable for future generations.

Traditional Indigenous knowledge is far ahead of us. They are proved right over and over again, in hindsight. We are wise to collaborate with them in planning for a future sustainable economy.

Considering Aboriginal traditional knowledge in environmental assessments conducted under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act -- Interim Principles
https://www.ceaa-acee.gc.ca/default.asp?lang=En&n=4A795E76-1
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 09:10:37 am by Granny »
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #168 on: July 31, 2019, 12:51:14 am »
Yes i agree.  My argument is that we won't find the solution in aboriginal economies because they have found sustainability in pre-industrial economic ways of life.  I'm sure there are some if not many things we can learn from them, but what we need are sustainable solutions to industrial economies.  Things like green energy and ways to power cities and vehicles etc.
What you can find in some aboriginal communities especially where modern treaties are being negotiated is the opportunity to try new resource management approaches that are rooted communally and are based on traditional ecological knowledge.

Heck, I know salmon habitat and enhancement guerillas who carry spawning gravel by backpack to local creeks in their effort to do what DFO refuses to do and even worse won't allow.

What we could really stand to learn from the more outspoken indigenous is to tell Ottawa to **** off and assert a little autonomy.  Popular mostly non-indigenous revolutions coalesced around indigenous aspirations are not without precedent.
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Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #169 on: July 31, 2019, 08:29:06 am »
Yes i agree.  My argument is that we won't find the solution in aboriginal economies because they have found sustainability in pre-industrial economic ways of life.  I'm sure there are some if not many things we can learn from them, but what we need are sustainable solutions to industrial economies.  Things like green energy and ways to power cities and vehicles etc.

Yes we certainly do need sustainable solutions to industrial economies and in our bullheaded and 'bandwagon' ways, we may make huge mistakes again, in the name of capitalism and private profit, as we have with over-reliance on fossil fuels. If we include Traditional Indigenous Knowledge in our planning, we'll make fewer mistakes. 

Elders told me that geothermal and tidal power are not solutions because long term, they are too disruptive to the earth's systems and sea creatures and are also vulnerable to disruption by climate and geological events.
They support wind power, especially the newer technologies (tube turbines that minimize noise/vibration and bird deaths). Also localized installation minimizing transmission, as transmission is very vulnerable to climate and geological disruption. Minimizing the necessity for 'migration' due to climate change and geological disruption is important in minimizing public costs and economic disruption.
Everybody should have a local, on/off the grid power source - solar and/or wind - to 'survive in place'.

Capitalism won't do that for us. They prefer the money to be made in transmission ... but transmission is not sustainable through climate change, and the infrastructure is ecologically destructive. (EG, Pipelines through wetlands that filter and clean the water for a whole watershed? Really?!!)

Indigenous Peoples see the past and the future, spiritually, perhaps, but also in a very practical sense because in their thousands of years of preserved memories, they've seen extreme climate and geologic disruption, and they can evaluate the long term viability of technologies for our future.

I'm not going to do your research on economies of Indigenous communities. I'll leave that for you to investigate yourself. (If you haven't done so, perhaps you shouldn't be dismissing them with  generalized, stereotyped and prejudiced  remarks.

Consider this: Some Indigenous communities have been able to earn capital from revenues accruing from industry developments in their territories, and use that capital to develop businesses that help their communities become self-sustaining. Others have not had access to such revenues. Throughout Canada's history, the Federal governments have stalled and evaded releasing money from Indigenous Trust Funds  to them for economic development, because local and other businesses DON'T WANT COMPETITION FROM INDIGENOUS BUSINESSES. That political/competitive pressure has been constant, and has disrupted many of their efforts at economic development.

Also, at least half of Indigenous people do not live on reserves, and their families may not have for several/many generations. Though they may maintain ties to their original communities, Nations and cultures, they are raised, educated and employed in our communities.

Indigenous Peoples have a lot of knowledge that can help us avoid mistakes in the future, and also a diversity in perspectives, economies, locations, societies and cultures across the country.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 08:47:33 am by Granny »

Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #170 on: August 20, 2019, 05:22:45 pm »
Hydrogen power?

https://phys.org/news/2019-08-scientists-hydrogen-gas-oil-bitumen.html

"This technique can draw up huge quantities of hydrogen while leaving the carbon in the ground. When working at production level, we anticipate we will be able to use the existing infrastructure and distribution chains to produce H2 for between 10 and 50 cents per kilo. This means it potentially costs a fraction of gasoline for equivalent output".

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #171 on: August 20, 2019, 06:50:19 pm »
"This technique can draw up huge quantities of hydrogen while leaving the carbon in the ground...

Sounds interesting. They didn't really address in what form the carbon is left, and how stable it will be. Does it bind to the oxygen they pump in, and form C02 which can seep out later?

Online Boges

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #172 on: August 27, 2019, 09:35:19 am »
Just an anecdote.

I recently had a sizeable maintenance bill for my conventional gasoline car. I decided to start kicking the tires on a new PHEV or Complete EV. I already own another conventional Hybrid.

Almost all EVs on the market are north of $50,000. With most being closer to $70,000 or more.

What's more affordable is a PHEV which gives you an electric charge for a modest distance (30-50kms or so) then it becomes a conventional Hybrid. In Ontario those cars qualify for a Green Plate which allows you to use HOV lanes solo for free. Conventional Hybrids don't qualify for a Green Plate.

I've never actually purchased a new car. I always either leased or bought cars off of a lease, which are still well maintained with relatively low kms. But I always thought the benefit for buying new is the good financing terms.

No so with these "Green" cars! The Feds give $5,000 or $2,500 respectively but you never really appreciate that because it's baked into the offer(and applicable to Sales Tax!!!!).

The lowest rate for a Green Car I saw was 2.5%. For Toyota's Prius you had a rate closer to 5%. For that rate, you might as well find a used car and finance with a Line of Credit or something.

A salesmen basically said that the demand is too high and the supply too low for us to offer an appealing rate.

If car companies and governments were serious about us reducing carbon, they'd make it way more appealing to buy such cars. Stop making gas guzzling SUVs and increase the supply of Green cars.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #173 on: August 27, 2019, 11:15:37 am »
Kia Soul EV is <$45k

Nissan Leaf is same. 

There are options under $45k - rebates.   Donít know if anyone has good financing rates. 

Online Boges

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #174 on: August 27, 2019, 12:38:34 pm »
Kia Soul EV is <$45k

Nissan Leaf is same. 

There are options under $45k - rebates.   Donít know if anyone has good financing rates.

Base model, plus taxes and fees. Close to 50,000. I checked, the Leaf is being offered at 4.5%.

And the Leaf and the Soul are tiny hatchbacks.
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Offline MH

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #175 on: August 27, 2019, 01:25:11 pm »
WHO ARE THE PEOPLE PAYING$40k for a NEW CAR?!?
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #176 on: August 27, 2019, 02:24:03 pm »
WHO ARE THE PEOPLE PAYING$40k for a NEW CAR?!?

People with a disposable income who can afford it and who, evidently, have different priorities than yourself. 

Online Boges

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #177 on: August 27, 2019, 02:29:07 pm »
People with a disposable income who can afford it and who, evidently, have different priorities than yourself.

And catering to only those people aren't going to do squat to fix the "climate crisis".

Hey that person choose Tesla over a Land Rover. Slow Clap.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #178 on: August 27, 2019, 02:56:42 pm »
How much would you spend on a new car MH?

How much did you spend on a house?

Hypothetically speaking, if I spent $135k on my house and itís paid off and now valued at $420k or so, do you think weíre in a different financial position and I might be able to put more money into a car if I chose to than someone who just bought in Toronto?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 02:58:20 pm by the_squid »

Offline wilber

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #179 on: August 27, 2019, 03:13:36 pm »
Aside from other considerations it is initial affordability. Over a long term, electric cars will be more cost effective. Maintenance will consist of not much more than tires, brakes and wiper blades and the cost of fuel will be a fraction of an IC powered car. If an EV fits your lifestyle and you are going to keep it more than five years, it would be the way to go. Many of the newer ones have on board chargers so all you need is a standard 220V outlet at your home for stage two charging.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 03:39:48 pm by wilber »
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